Your Seat at the Table - Real Conversations on Leadership and Growth
Join hosts Mike Maddock and John Tobin as they delve into authentic stories of leadership, decision-making under pressure, and the invaluable lessons learned along the way. Each episode offers candid conversations with seasoned leaders, exploring the challenges faced, the triumphs celebrated, and the insights gained from real-world experiences. Whether you’re an aspiring leader or a seasoned executive, pull up a chair and find your seat at the table.
Your Seat at the Table - Real Conversations on Leadership and Growth
Decimal Points and Swag: A Woman's Path to the C-Suite with Terry Hill
Terry Hill shares her journey from HR professional to C-suite executive, revealing how she learned the "fine art of approximation" after watching male colleagues confidently present rough estimates while she felt compelled to provide decimal-point precision.
• Early career path from retail to American Express to Nationwide Insurance
• Moving from HR into business leadership and the challenges of that transition
• The importance of building strong peer relationships across organizations
• Learning that authenticity is more valuable than trying to fit an executive stereotype
• Managing down versus managing up as a leadership philosophy
• Making tough business decisions with values-based principles
• Creating goals that prioritize people even during difficult business transitions
• The value of having a trusted chief of staff who can provide honest feedback
• Common executive challenges around communication and difficult conversations
• The permanent state of uncertainty in today's business environment
• Advice to take more vacation and build confidence earlier in your career
If you're interested in executive coaching, Terry now works with clients to increase self-awareness and improve leadership effectiveness through mostly referral-based relationships.
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I was the only woman at the table at the time and I was watching men come in with these approximations and these swags and so when I was getting asked questions about my business or things going on, I was like decimal, pointing it Like I had to.
Terri Hill:It had to be accurate, for me to be able to commit to a number, like you know, 30 million dollar. Swings in results or budgets were being thrown around, meeting to meeting, thrown around, meeting to meeting. So I learned the fine art of approximation and that it didn't have to be quite so accurate and to be able to just let go of some of that, be at the table with, like I don't know everything that's going on and that's okay, I can navigate this.
Mike Maddock:Welcome to the your Seat at the Table podcast with your hosts Idea Monkey Mike Maddock and Ringleader John Tobin. We're two founders a serial entrepreneur and a billion-dollar operator who talk to leaders about how, when and why they made their most pivotal decisions in life. Join us as we share wisdom, mistakes and a few laughs, learning from the brightest minds in business today. Okay, good morning. We are here with my good buddy, terry Terry Hill, who's an executive coach extraordinaire and one of the best business leaders I've ever had the opportunity to work with, and I say that because everyone who worked with you, terry, absolutely adored working with you. I had never met someone you worked with that didn't become your friend, which is saying something Because you worked in a really, really, really big company. But we'll get to that. Before we do, I'll do this, john Terry, tell us your story. How did you wind up getting to the C-suite at Nationwide and Amex? How did you wind up getting there?
Terri Hill:Well, like a lot of people not a straight line for sure, straight line for sure I graduated with a degree in organizational communication at Arizona State University. Go, sun Devils and I you know it was me and the football players. I wasn't that great in math, so that was how I could get out in four years that that got me through and I landed. It was the 80s, early 80s, the recession. I landed an opportunity in retail and and I just knew at that point I wanted to be in HR. So I was offered a job as a credit manager and I said no, you don't understand, I want to be in HR. So that launched my HR career five years in different settings and retail stores and doing kind of jack of all trades. And then I was ready for a change and landed an opportunity with American Express where I really got to go in and I got a chance to be a training and development person and then leader.
Terri Hill:And I remember being in this.
Terri Hill:It was the beginning when we were just giving up overhead projectors and starting to move to experiential learning and there was like really kind of fun things going on in this classroom setting and I was just pinching myself thinking I can't believe I get paid $23,000 a year to do this job, and that led to increasing responsibilities to eventually become Vice President of Human Resources in one of our divisions.
Terri Hill:I was not at the C-suite, but I was at the table and with a group of 4,000, you know people under us that were in our direction and I had this little thought in the back of my head wouldn't it be nice to be at the table? And this insurance company down the street, scottsdale Insurance Company, had an opening for a leader of human resources. So I joined that team and that led me through a lot of fabulous experiences, great team and on a path to one day get a phone call that said, hey, we have this job in Columbus, ohio, where, uh, you can be the chief administrative officer for the company. And, um, I was like, oh, I'd have this little life I've carved out so conveniently. Um, but when you get called up to the majors, you take your shot. And, uh, and that's what I did.
Mike Maddock:And you. You wound up um rising at Nationwide. I got to work with you and my team got to work with you, and you were, at the time, the president of remind me.
Terri Hill:Nationwide Growth Solutions.
Mike Maddock:So you were launching new products, so I'll ask you your first here comes a curveball Insurance. Mostly men, mostly women.
Terri Hill:More men than women, for sure.
Mike Maddock:And what any. So you have to be. You have to be not only nice, not only super clever, but a little bit political. I would say so in order to survive and thrive in that environment. So what's a political move you're proud of and one of your regret, I think?
John Tobin:any. Like any big company, there's politics and you've got to know how to play the game. But uh, it was a good question, terry. As you sort of navigated your career, were there moves that you made that you remember were little strategic things that you did, or maybe at the time it didn't seem like a big deal, but then you in hindsight it was like I'm glad I formed that relationship or whatever. I think it's a really good question, yeah.
Terri Hill:Yeah, I think that probably one of the things that I started at American Express and continued which was building good peer relationships and continued which was building good peer relationships.
Terri Hill:So I really I always loved my teams and I kind of tended to manage down more than up, but I really was able to build relationships across the organization and there were some times when I really needed to call on those relationships to help me out and so and being a part of a team was important to me and helping a team get to its goals and successes.
Terri Hill:So that I would say was probably I didn't know it at the time, I was just doing what I thought you know people do, which is to build relationships and people you work with. But it really it paid. And I think that probably the thing that I regret was that I had in my head what executive leadership looked like, you know, like like the image of the St John's suit and the you know, and the, just the, the presence you had to bring, and what I learned over time was bringing more of my own humanity, my own authenticity to it was what was the key to success. That being who I was was better than trying to be somebody that I idealized or had thought I should be.
John Tobin:When do you think you really learn that that, that, that, um, being yourself was actually the the right thing to do and more advantageous for your career than trying to fit into something that you weren't? Was that, uh, you know, later, uh, pretty early on, or like, as you got these uh different like C, c, C suite type of assignments, did that give you the conference or did you have it, and then that actually promoted you into those C-suite of assignments? Did that give you the confidence or did you have it, and then that actually promoted you into those C-suite? How did that? How did that manifest itself?
Terri Hill:Yeah, I think that it was probably a little bit. A little bit gradual. You know, different learning experiences that I had and just development where I got to know myself better. I mean, I think that was, you know, all through my 30s. I don't really think I knew who I was. I was just, you know, playing out the role of the leader and the roles of things that I thought were important, the things that I was reading were important. But I think when I was kind of embarking into my 40s was when I really started to realize that I wanted to know myself and I wanted to understand what was my uniqueness to bring to the situation. And I think that it was probably like outside coaching, outside mentoring, outside you know kind of experiences that helped me see that.
John Tobin:And then, as I would apply things and people would respond within my own teams and then, as I would apply things and people would respond within my own teams, then that was reinforcing. I'd love to stay on this thread.
Mike Maddock:If that's okay, I'm on the same thread, okay.
John Tobin:Because I think it's really well. I'm such a believer in being yourself and and um being in the consulting world. A lot of times you would look at the larger consulting companies and they you would say they would almost have a factory of like this is a consultant. You will do this. You will dress like this. You will say this. It was very robotic, yeah.
Terri Hill:And do you remember when we could move from the let's see the blue ties to the yellow ties?
John Tobin:Yeah, I had to wear a tie, yeah, until like probably 98, I think yeah, but I remember that that was. One of the things that I didn't like about being part of a larger consulting company was that I didn't feel that I could be myself, and so that was something that I actually talked to people about right away, and I didn't know it at the time, but it really was like inclusive, like being. How do you be inclusive? How do you allow people to just be themselves and not worry about all the other noise?
John Tobin:And, yeah, I think the other thing about me personally was I'm not a very good public speaker, but yet people like whatever I would say resonated with them and the way they would say it is like you're just so authentic, You're just you're, you're just being you like, and and I I used to almost take it as an insult Because it was really polished and it's like that like, rather than saying you're super polished or you know, everything you said was perfect. I, you know, was not that articulate or was like choppy, but the humanity in me came across and that was actually better, and I think that was when I really realized that that actually is an asset, just being yourself, and so I was curious, Mike, if you had any like realizations like that, like wherever, or you again, you're, or were you just always confident?
Mike Maddock:I'm reminded that. Uh, terry, you told me the story that you were talking to the CEO of nationwide and you said Mike Maddock, he goes. Mike Maddock is that the guy that wore jeans in the boardroom? So the reason I wore jeans in the boardroom was because I got off stage once and realized I was dressing up to get on stage Like I was getting out of jeans and putting on a different outfit and I thought how ridiculous this is. You know, people are asking me to talk and they're asking me to speak because they want to hear from me and I'm walking on stage and being someone different. So that's the moment I had that realization.
Mike Maddock:And, terry, you're a total whizzy wig. What you see is what you get my favorite kind of person and I wrote an article about you for Forbes the two times two types of disruptors One was the maverick and one was the orchestrator. Mavericks leave awake, they blow everything up, they tick everybody off, they're fired in three years. And then there's the orchestrator. And I was thinking of you. You know where all the bodies are buried. You said you tend to manage down and set up. I want to hear more about that. But people trusted you. You checked in with people and in Flourish. You're involved in Flourish advisory boards now as a coach. There's a seat called the orchestrator and you are central casting for an orchestrator. You, you feel everyone's pain. You're an incredible empath. I'm curious. So two questions. One you said you tended to manage down instead of manage up. What did you mean by that as an orchestrator? And then I want to know how did you become that way? Is that mom or dad?
Terri Hill:Or how did you learn to check in with people all the time? Yeah, it's a really good question. I think it's come Well. It was probably the dynamics in my household and that, like a facilitator was needed.
Mike Maddock:Where are you in birth order? Where are you?
Terri Hill:I'm first born, okay, and so my dad worked all the time. He'd come home burnt out, my mom was, you know, like having had us all day needing some attention, and the two of them would kind of have their dynamics. And I just would try and, in my little, you know eight-year-old way, try and slip in to try and help bring harmony. And so I do think I innately that's probably something that I was born with is this desire for that kind of thing, which can sometimes get in the way, right there's. Sometimes you have to shake it up and create some dysfunction to get to a better solution. So I've had to learn that along the way too. I think that. So that was how I got there. I lost the thread.
Mike Maddock:Manage down, manage up. I tended to manage down instead of manage up and I'm like I'm deeply curious about what you, because I know you so well. What do you mean by that?
Terri Hill:Well, I remember being confronted in an interview of like you have to pick one. Do you as your priority managing your team, managing relationships across the organization or managing your boss? And I was like, oh, I balance all three and no, you got to pick one.
Terri Hill:you know, it's kind of one of those tough interview moments and I realized that I was not the person who was going to like figure out what the boss needed and go do that. I tended to look at what did I think the organization needed and rally my team to get that done and then try and work the rest of the network to see if that could be, you know, to make that work, make that beneficial. But I've always had a lot of care for the people that work for me and I've always invested in wanting to invest in their development becoming the best that they could.
Mike Maddock:Yeah, I think and again I'll be the controversial one I think in big companies like that that most everyone's managing up Like they're so worried about kissing up to the person above them and I just it gives, it's gross. You get in these rooms and everyone's you know what do you think? And everyone looks to their right to see what you know. Their bosses, bosses, bosses, boss thinks it's and I just so, yeah, I see that in you Is there. Did you ever have to reinvent yourself? Was there ever a moment where you're just like this is no longer working. I need to be something different.
Terri Hill:Yes, I think when I did make the leap to take the true C-suite role, I was still trying to hold on in some ways to a lot more touch and feel of what was going on and I really had to let some of that go. I kind of was like the old Mikey will eat the cereal commercial. I was just acquiring a lot of different duties. It started off HR and real estate and aviation and then it became external real estate for a little while and somebody left and I got a health and productivity company and then somebody else left and I just pretty soon had a pretty far reaching set of responsibilities and I got overwhelmed and I was trying to be in the details and I think also one thing that I I was watching. I was the only woman at the table at the time and I was watching. You know, men come in with these approximations and these swags, and so when I was getting asked questions about my business or things going on, I was like decimal, pointing it like I had to.
Terri Hill:It had to be accurate, for me to be able to commit to a number where, like you know, $30 million swings in in results or budgets were being thrown around meeting to meeting. So I learned the fine art of approximation and that it didn't have to be quite so accurate and to be able to just let go some of that be at the table with, like, I don't know, everything that's going on and that's okay, I can navigate this.
Mike Maddock:Yeah. Is there anything you learned from a startup that made you a better startup, or a smaller business that made you be a better leader at a big company like Nationwide or Amex?
Terri Hill:Well, you know, kind of like John, I actually always have worked, I think, in more in, you know, corporate businesses, you know, even in retail it was affiliated with some larger piece. But I do think that, being in a store, I was the personnel director back then, but it was me, a staff of one, and so Christmas we get on the floor and we sell. It's like you lock up the back offices and you get out and you do the work of what's needed and I think that really one. It really taught me to be involved with the business. So I always considered myself an HR leader who cared about the business and was wanted to know the business challenges which paid off. And I think it taught me to be scrappy and find solutions and not know because retail you're starved, you have no margins, right, it's just like very thin, and so you just have to find resourceful ways to get things done. So as I moved to bigger organizations when resources were limited, it didn't really scare me, it was just a way to find a new solution.
John Tobin:I want to. I want to ask you a little bit about HR, like in general, and you've been out of Nationwide since, I think, 2018. Is that right?
Terri Hill:Yes.
John Tobin:So you've been doing executive coaching, but is it broadly executive coaching or is it specific for HR? And I guess my question because I kind of want to get into some of the latest things that I'm seeing from an HR perspective and if you're abreast of those areas, especially from, like, an AI and a technology standpoint. So I'm just I want to ask you that but like I don't know if you're still like in it or in those communities, I don't know if you're still like in it or in those communities.
Terri Hill:That's great. Not really. I actually left human resources in 2009. Oh, wow, okay, and moved over to be, as Mike was describing, a business leader. So I had that key moment and I moved from HR over to the business and then ran that portfolio that we talked about. So I've actually been out for quite a while.
John Tobin:Okay.
Terri Hill:And so, yeah, I'm not the best person for that question.
John Tobin:Well, no, that's actually helpful. I don't know if I picked that up, I guess. So that's a big move. Yes, to really run the business. You know, as opposed to opposed to. You know, thinking about it from an HR perspective. Um, how did you prepare yourself, like, how did you make that shift I mean, we're only part of the business, like you said, and I think the best HR people are was pretty natural. Or did you really have to dive in, maybe with a peer, or get coaching yourself? Like, how did that transition seems pretty huge, but I'm curious, like how that was for you.
Terri Hill:It was huge. No, you're exactly right. So while I prided myself on being a business oriented HR leader and I did have, you know, a pretty good size set of responsibilities, you know, running a business a completely different animal have a pretty good size set of responsibilities, running a business is a completely different animal. And in those first six months I couldn't learn fast enough for what the business needed. I mean, I just felt like I was just in catch up and a couple of things I did that made a big difference. One is that I did bring over the finance person that I had had and so that they could come with me, because it wasn't my strong suit and I knew I needed somebody who, who could I could work well with, to get in and help me understand and break through the financials, because not all the businesses weren't all in great shape. So we needed to clean that up. And and I also brought over or brought in and brought over someone who could help me in a chief administrative kind of officer type role.
Terri Hill:And so I had my own chief of staff to be able to. So those two things enabled me to be out and learning the business and working with the leaders in the business. And doing that, I did get coaching. So I that was a really key point in my life. That coaching was really pivotal. Um, helping me, you know, kind of navigate through the nuances of being a business leader versus being a functional leader, which are very different.
Mike Maddock:Uh do, you did you ever feel like quitting and if and if you felt like quitting, what kept you going?
Terri Hill:Definitely had those feelings, and what kept me going was that I had a team that was counting on me.
Mike Maddock:Yeah, I knew you were going to say that, yeah, and so, okay, your chief administration officer, in dark, quiet moments when the door is closed, what are you counting on that person to do? Like? What is it that they that they're whispering in your ear that that? Why do they make the big bucks? What makes a great wing person?
Terri Hill:So having like a like a chief of staff role.
Mike Maddock:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Terri Hill:Yeah, that. So, and for me it was always a development position. So they were always somebody who, you know, was hoping that would develop and grow and go on to do other things in the organization, and they had different skill sets. I had different folks in that role over time and and I think the but the key criteria were that they would do what you said, which is they would, you know, be observant, notice what was happening and be able to close the door and go like you're missing this.
Terri Hill:And let me show you and I could be vulnerable, like, ok, I'm not really sure I'm understanding how that you know, like let's break that down. Or can you show it to me in a different way? I didn't like those those chief of staff roles where they started to behave as you or started to try and use your authority to go get their own things done. In organizations, the where it worked best for me was and I so that I never hired for and didn't you know like I worked best when we were a team and helping to run this team together. But what great exposure right to be sitting, you know, snug up next to a president of division and be able to to see the, the, you know, pull somebody up from a lower level and to see the view from that level in an organization.
Mike Maddock:Yeah, I remember talking to Dennis McDonough, who was the chief of staff for President Obama, and I asked him what the worst part of the job was and he said if I have to go into the Oval Office and say something to the president, it is going to be a shit sandwich. And I had to deliver it every time and, no matter what decision he made, he was half the country was going to be angry about it. And I just thought, well, that's amazing, like like being able to have the ability to walk in and say, listen, I have to say something that you are not going to want to hear, but someone needs to tell you, and for you to trust that person enough to go. Okay, I, maybe I'm missing something. Tell me more. I have some of your right-hand people gone on to do great things, all of them Softball pitch.
Terri Hill:Yeah, all of them. I'm really, I'm really proud of each one of them and the journey we were on. So, yeah, no, it's very. It's that the very rewarding.
Mike Maddock:I met a couple amazing people.
John Tobin:I'm curious, and maybe we can get into it a little bit from the theme of this around being an executive and kind of having to make tougher decisions or, you know, being at the table when you had to make a tough decision, especially in your role as president. Were there some tough decisions that you remember having to go through and make and curious how that well, what you did to prepare yourself or how do you went about making that decision? It's kind of one of the themes that we try to ask people, but I'm thinking about for that role in particular. There were a lot of things coming at you, a lot of different investments you could make. As I'm looking at it, can we talk through maybe a couple examples of different decisions you made and then how you went about that?
Terri Hill:Yeah, it's great. I mentioned that we had a health and productivity company inside the organization which was doing everything from coaching nutritional coaching for businesses to helping people with chronic illness, and it was under the premise that, you know, if we can help people be healthier, then they don't need the life insurance and other insurance products as much. Right, so makes sense, Wasn't really core for a property casualty company and it was an acquisition of three different businesses that were put together. Okay, as I came in to take a look at it, it was well, one. It was 2009.
Terri Hill:So it was starting to be a tough economic time as the financial crisis was and companies were pulling back from this kind of thing, and it was already losing money because it hadn't really been fully integrated and struggling to have the IT capability to pull it off. So what do you do, right? Do you keep pouring money into it and trying? So we started down that path. What could we do? How could we? Could we go to India at lower cost? On, you know?
Terri Hill:right at it. So we explored different avenues and got the brutal facts in front of us, which at that time I also brought somebody else on the team who was from you know kind of strategy space, who could come in and really help me kind of look at this, and the data just proved that it wouldn't, really couldn't hunt, and especially it probably could in five years, but not in two or three.
Terri Hill:So, we made the decision to divest, there were 500 people whose lives were at stake by that decision, who are working employed by the organization, so that and then you know from divestitures and exits they don't happen quickly.
Terri Hill:You have non-competes and non-disclosure agreements and so enrolling a team in going through that process that took us some time to find the right kind of places where we could find somebody that would take the businesses and where we could find homes for the business. It was really a yeah, probably most difficult year or two, you know, as we kind of went through from the beginning of deciding to the point where it was fully executed. And yet I'm really proud of the fact that we set three goals take care of our customers through all of that, take care of our team and all of our associates and you know the reputation or the brand of the organization, and those three goals kept us going through all of that. That was really key and and we and they were in conflict sometimes. Right, so do you? Should we launch this with a customer knowing that it might get handed off to somebody else? But if we don't, then we're not providing for our employees?
John Tobin:So it was lots of, lots of those tough decisions and that's a great, that's a really great example Must have been very difficult, especially if you're you're creating this thing from three different entities and then to have to make that decision.
John Tobin:There's a nugget in there too that you know, obviously very data backed. But I love the idea that you, even in this hard decision, this hard thing you had to do, you had these goals that were very righteous, in a way like very, very, very much humane and for good, and I just think that sometimes it's lost. You know, sometimes it's just a hardcore. You know spreadsheet exercise, it's like just slice it, take the tax write-out, you know, like that's how I think sometimes it comes across. But I love that idea and one of the things that I hope people like a couple different little nuggets and then they try. But as you're going through a different difficult thing and the data says to do this, I love the idea of creating goals towards when you're on the other side of it, and what are those goals that will make you feel good, even that you had to go through a hard thing.
Terri Hill:And to add two things to it. One was once we could see some of the data we brought the senior team in and particularly the entrepreneurs that we had acquired and brought in who obviously did not want this and they had just taken their life's work and handed it to this organization to become something different.
Terri Hill:So but it was like and we took us multiple reps through the data because it wasn't believable at first, it didn't seem right and it wasn't what they'd been hearing. So it was just like being patient to get the team to see the same truth that we were we were seeing in the numbers and validate too, because maybe we were seeing something wrong.
Terri Hill:Once we got to that point and we made the decision we had to go find a banker and the first banking group we brought in were exactly oh, we can harvest some of your customers and you know we'll get you. You know a little bit for this and I was like what if I told you that that was not acceptable, that what I want is somebody who will employ the team?
Mike Maddock:Yeah.
Terri Hill:And and we ended up having to find a different banker because they were perplexed by that. You know, and I remember being the only woman in a room with a bunch of suits and like just saying like, no, this is what's going to be important in this transaction. Now, thank God, I had the organization support behind me, like I had the CEO and I had folks like around me saying like, yes, you can, you can do this and it's okay not to, you know, make a bunch of money off of this.
John Tobin:Take the first thing that came along and, yeah, that patience is really respectable. I mean that's, that's impressive. And was that hard to convince the other senior execs to do that? Or was it are you very values-based and it kind of just flowed with the executive team vibe in a way?
Terri Hill:are a values-based organization, so that was in our favor and I had a really supportive leader at the time, who got on board with me and then handled, you know, any of the interference that you know needed, you know, to be able to do that so and we had been peers and then I went to go work for him, so that another moment where the peer relationship piece paid off.
Mike Maddock:I just noticed she spoke about nationwide in present tense, which is sweet. Yeah, you're still part of the team. So, hey, here's anything you'd tell your 35 year old self today. On the look back, you know, having been through you, I mean you got to the top of an organization a really good one. You did it the right way. From the cheap seats it really seems like you treated people really well and you got that all the things done because people trusted you. What would you tell your 35-year-old self?
Terri Hill:Really good question.
Terri Hill:Well, take more vacation.
Terri Hill:I actually think that all those years that I just left it on the table because something at work was more important, I think that you know I could feel it once I walked away just how much I had given and how, like, really, you know how drained I was, and so that I definitely is one piece. I think there's definitely something of like, you know, if you know, and then, like there was something about confidence too. I did not have a lot of confidence, you know, in those early days that you know, had enough obviously to, but it was more of a hard work ethic to than it was confidence. And the confidence came along the way and and I so believing because I wasn't like everybody else, you know I wasn't, I, you know, wasn't a career insurance person, I was different. I had some, you know, I was more a people person taking those things and applying it. You know, in that, in that world, and so when you're a little bit different than the norm, it, it erodes at whether or not you feel good about what you're doing.
Mike Maddock:Yeah, I, I remember. So I mentioned earlier your central casting for orchestrator the six seats around the T, an executive team, or the operator, the strategist, the rainmaker, the visionary, the futurist tech futurist. And the orchestrator the strategist, the rainmaker, the visionary, the futurist tech futurist. And the orchestrator. The orchestrator is the glue that keeps the team together. And I remember you would ask our team to come in early before everyone got to Nationwide, and I remember it was like a scene from Mad Men there were all these executive assistants making coffee at like seven in the morning and that they're the only ones in the building except for you. And we come to your office and you'd sit us down and say, hey, look, this is what we're trying to do. Here are the people involved in, here is what they care about. And you really were. Just you'd coach us up on here's what people are worried about. Here's, here are, this is what they're trying to do. And we would walk into a room just knowing all the. You know where the passion was in the room and it was.
Mike Maddock:It was because you are strategic about making people feel good about outcomes and it is your superhero power, terry. You're really good at it and I and I know you're coaching. You're coaching at Flourish, but you're coaching executives all the time and I've gotten to recommend you a few times. Know, you're coaching? You're coaching at Flourish, but you're coaching executives all the time and I've gotten to recommend you a few times because you're just like a ninja. So anybody listening to this who wants an amazing coach, an executive coach who's seen most everything in large organizations, I couldn't recommend you more. You're incredible. I have rapid fire questions, john.
John Tobin:I just actually want to get into the coaching a little bit, just because it's something that you know I do. I don't I'm not a certified coach, but that's kind of almost the job I'm in is really executive coaching. It sounds, you know, when you, when you made the transition out of Nationwide, did you ready, were you certified executive coach already and then like to start the company that you have, was that, was that like a just a no brainer, or did you have like a couple of clients already, like I? I'm just curious like that, that transition that you had as someone that may go through that transition soon. So I certify.
Mike Maddock:You said it's really certifiable.
Terri Hill:Ask me for a friend. I had not. So two things. One is in my last kind of couple of years, as I knew I was starting to approach retirement and time to transition, I started paying attention to what I really loved most about the job and mentoring, developing my team, those kind of things are what stood out.
Terri Hill:So that idea of being a coach in this kind of bonus round which we have uniquely, you know, in this day and age you know another 20 years post, you know 60 that we get to work or contribute in some way. So I, as I left, I went through the coaching certification, which was really a good thing to do, because I went from you know like meeting after meeting, you know day after day, into like it would have been nothing right, like all of a sudden. But I had this coaching program which was, you know, 20 hours a week investment. So I kind of had like this part time job, you know, to be able to learn how to do it and to become a certified coach, and I did not have clients going into it. But through the coaching certification you're required to do you know certification hours, and so I built a small clientele through that and then, um, and then just put it out there, but my business comes pretty much a hundred percent referral now through the networks that I have.
John Tobin:Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Are you? Are you pretty? And this may sound like a weird question, but like, are you, are you pretty busy? Like is it? Is it? Is it full-time or is it like very part-time? And then even let's say it's not, I'm telling myself a story. But but was it ever like, oh, this is full on. I have you know like 10 clients and like just curious on the cycles of that.
Terri Hill:Yeah, it's. It is a little bit cyclical.
Terri Hill:I'm not intending to do it full time, so it's part of a portfolio life at this stage where I can, you know, exercise and do other things that I let go all of those years while I was busy working. So the work part has shrunk and the pie and the other pieces of you know, friends and family have grown and so I. But it is. It is it is possible to be full time busy with coaching and and, and it is more of a labor of love, you know, for me at this stage and so you know, like five to seven clients at any point in time that I've kind of got in motion any point in time that I've kind of got in motion.
John Tobin:That makes total sense. Last question, mike on this You've seen maybe people from different industries, focus areas, whatever. Is there sort of a common thread that you see for executives out there that like the the sticky point? And I know everybody's different, so I'm sure this yeah, this is a pretty generic question, but I'm just curious, like, do you find, is there any commonality or common thread that you see that you can tease out and share with the audience? Um, and maybe you can give people a heads up like hey, just get out of your way on this issue that I continually see.
Terri Hill:Yeah, it's around communication and it's around having the tough conversations.
Terri Hill:Getting skillful at being able to have difficult conversations is probably the thing that I see in common. What surprised me most about my coaching business is that it is multiple industry, different functions. You know all the, you know I. You know just people, very different each one of them and and very often at the core, is you know things that need to be said or handled that just get put on the back burner and it just accumulates and it sits there and it doesn't go away unless you can really do that well.
John Tobin:And so the coaching piece of that, is it you're challenging them to like take action that they've been thinking about? Is it like them practicing to you what they're going to say, going to say, like, maybe just one other little nugget that you could share around, what you end up doing to get people to the point where they're finally going to confront whatever situation that is in front of them?
Terri Hill:So it is a little bit of all of what you've said, and but at the core, my job as a coach is to increase my client's self-awareness so oftentimes that whatever is in the way is not even really known to them.
John Tobin:Yeah.
Terri Hill:It's right. It's something deeper that changing that changes a lot of other things.
Mike Maddock:With awareness comes choice, with choice comes responsibility. Yes, okay, so rapid fire question time. Let's have some fun. Don't think too much, just blurt Ready't know, I guess best aunt, there you go.
John Tobin:Do you miss Arizona? You lived there for a while and then you moved to Columbus and now in Texas. Do you miss Arizona?
Terri Hill:I do because my family's all there. So I get to go back and I don't miss the really hot summers.
Mike Maddock:All right, next question One thing large companies need to steal from entrepreneurs.
Terri Hill:Making decisions more quickly. Great One thing entrepreneurs should never copy from large companies.
Mike Maddock:Like corporate infrastructure, house of cards.
Terri Hill:Best piece of career advice you ignored and then wish you hadn't being bolder earlier.
Mike Maddock:Good Worst leadership cliche that still will not die.
Terri Hill:Oh gosh, yeah, that feels like it deserves some thought.
John Tobin:Mike, is there one that you have? Because I would struggle to come up with the answer, but maybe if you have something, on the top of your head.
Mike Maddock:Thanks, find something. You're passionate about you'll never work a day in your life.
John Tobin:That's a good one. I love that.
Mike Maddock:No, you don't have to work hard. Yeah, no, I just think I don't get me started on that one. I think we're. I think it's a lie we tell our children these days and so they're like well, I'm not passionate about it, so it must not be a good job for me. No, that's not how it works. Your passion, passion will find you. Okay, sorry, off the soapbox that was a good one.
Terri Hill:No, that was a really good one, yeah.
Mike Maddock:Yeah, and it's more. What's more powerful in a meeting, Terry? Silence or certainty, Silence, Silence. See now, that's a lesson I should have learned many, many years ago. I never um a book. You'd give away more than any other.
Terri Hill:Hmm, ago, I never um a book you'd give away more than any other.
Terri Hill:Hmm, uh, two really, and these crucial conversations. Back to the question that John asked and I think that, um, another one which is, uh uh, situational leadership and the one minute manager. It's a little blanchard book, but I think leaders don't often kind of understand and especially leaders who get promoted quickly like different leadership styles and approaches for different people, different tasks and situations. It's kind of like being a laissez-faire manager when somebody's brand new doesn't work, or being over-controlling when somebody's really got it and needs more delegation and hands-off.
Mike Maddock:Those are great answers. I would have sent you wine if you said plan D, but let's move on. The first thing you notice in a great leader Authenticity. Yeah, awesome To your point, John.
John Tobin:Sorry, mike, maybe not a rapid fire one, but it just got me thinking. The last three years have been, I think, really difficult for corporate America or corporate, but bigger companies, I think, in general, and I'm curious if you've seen any patterns change with leadership, leaders and what they're struggling with. I mean, I know I asked the thread about what's common, but I'm just curious if you've noticed like, ok, more stress or more things they feel uncertain about or not in control of. I've noticed that, a bit like with our buyers, you know, people buying they're just, they're not quite sure to buy, whereas 2021, after COVID, 2022, it's like go, go, go, go go and then pull back a lot in 23. I'm just curious if you've noticed anything like that. And even if you have an even example, you don't have to name who it is or the company, but what you saw there, you don't have to name who it is or the company.
Terri Hill:But what you saw there, I guess my answer to your question because my purview would be like so much more uncertainty that leaders are navigating and so not feeling on solid ground on hardly anything. Like you say, do you acquire talent now, Do you not? Do you have to sell something to make the margins work or do you stick it out? Is it like those kind of feeling like you're in a whipsaw kind of thing and needing to move from that kind of model of like those old patterns of what you do when you are certain to moving more to a test and learn environment and just like that kind of entrepreneurial, like just paying at things and try things and the agile piece like exactly so much more the way we need to operate, and yet most leaders raise in a paradigm which is build a fact base and then go figure it out Be right.
Mike Maddock:Yeah, it's interesting, terry, just to build on that point. The transition that I've seen in these advisory groups, these CEO groups, over the last two months is what I'm starting to hear now is okay, we can no longer wait till this is over. This is a permanent state of uncertainty, so we just have to deal with it, which is exactly what you just said. But that light bulb is just now going on and I think it either takes a pivot like leaders to think differently or different types of leaders in that situation. Okay, we're out of time, but I have one last question for you before I say thank you. Is there something that we should have asked you or a question that you wish people would ask you more often?
Terri Hill:You've asked such great questions. I think that, and it's been a fabulous dialogue. Thank you both for that. I think no, I feel complete Thank you.
Mike Maddock:I feel complete too, terry, you're amazing, you're wonderful. Thank you for giving me that Amazing background. I feel complete too, terry, you're amazing. You're wonderful. Thank you for Amazing background.
John Tobin:Really great, great stories and I think that I could see you as an executive coach. I have to say, like I could totally see that he's about to hire you.
Mike Maddock:Yeah, you got a gig it happened.
John Tobin:I think the experience is, but the way you look at things is very similar ethos for, like myself, the company I work with, slalom, and it's just very human, based, honestly, and it comes back to those things and you know, calling people out on being accountable to live their values basically, and so, anyway, it looked so clearly comes through from you and I just really appreciated this conversation thank you for reflecting that back.
Terri Hill:That's wonderful, and thank you for the time grateful for you, terry.
Mike Maddock:Thank you thanks sir.
