Your Seat at the Table - Real Conversations on Leadership and Growth
Join hosts Mike Maddock and John Tobin as they delve into authentic stories of leadership, decision-making under pressure, and the invaluable lessons learned along the way. Each episode offers candid conversations with seasoned leaders, exploring the challenges faced, the triumphs celebrated, and the insights gained from real-world experiences. Whether you’re an aspiring leader or a seasoned executive, pull up a chair and find your seat at the table.
Your Seat at the Table - Real Conversations on Leadership and Growth
Fight Like a Pilot, Lead Like a Senator with Martha McSally
Martha McSally's life story reads like an action-packed novel—from losing her father at 12 to becoming America's first female fighter pilot in combat to serving as a U.S. Senator. But beneath these remarkable achievements lies a profound journey of self-discovery that offers wisdom for anyone struggling with identity, purpose, and leadership.
For anyone ready to challenge their comfort zone or confront what’s holding them back, this conversation is an invitation to run toward the roar—to face the hard stuff head-on with courage and clarity.
Martha reflects on the sudden loss of her father and his final words to “make him proud”—a mission that propelled her forward but eventually became a weight she had to release. With rare candor, she reveals how grief, grit, and rebellion shaped her path to the Air Force Academy, where she was told women were legally barred from becoming fighter pilots. Her reaction: “That’s exactly what I’m going to do.”
Martha’s approach to leadership—whether commanding fighter missions or navigating Washington’s political turbulence—centers on authenticity, resilience, and mission-focus. She doesn’t sugarcoat her Senate experience, describing Congress as “a different combat zone” where she fought to lead with integrity despite a frustrating environment. “It was one of the highest honors of my life to be a U.S. Senator... and also the most frustrating thing I’ve done in my life.”
Through the six lenses of identity, courage, purpose, leadership, failure, and freedom, Martha challenges leaders to strip away external expectations and get clear on who they really are. Her “I am” statements—unbreakable, courageous, generous—aren’t just affirmations, they’re anchors for decision-making in uncertain times.
For leaders navigating post-pandemic complexities, Martha offers straight talk: your team has to “show up and work,” but leadership today also means creating spaces where creativity and sustainability coexist. She draws a powerful distinction between “whatever it takes” seasons and “good enough” rhythms—an essential mindset shift for long-term impact.
Real leaders. Real stories. Real action. Martha’s journey is more than inspirational—it’s instructional. Her story proves that the most effective leadership isn’t about status or control; it’s about showing up with clarity, conviction, and compassion.
Ready to explore your own edge? Connect with Martha through her adventure experiences or speaking engagements. Visit her website to discover how her unique blend of military discipline, political insight, and soul-deep authenticity can help transform your leadership and your life.
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I'm here to express a unique essence of the person that I am right, we're all unique essence. You know, whatever your spiritual beliefs are right, there is a divine nature. Whether you agree with it or not, there's some divine nature out there, whatever your dogma is. So I have a unique expression here on this planet that is uniquely me, like a snowflake. The core of that is not necessarily the uniform, it's not the senator title. The core of that are deeper and words, words are not enough to capture it.
Martha McSally:But I think about it like when Michelangelo was asked about the sculpture the David and I think it was the Pope said how did you do this? And he said it was easy. I just cut away anything that wasn't the David. So I believe it's our journey here, your journey, each of you, everyone listening to cut away anything that isn't the John, cut away anything that isn't the job, cut away anything that isn't the mic, and that's often either cultural expectations or unhealed trauma, or somebody live in somebody else's life or somebody else's expectations of you.
Martha McSally:We're like we're all doing that to some degree and for me my journey has been like all right, those are good, interesting things that I did and I'm grateful for them. But it's not my identity. Let's cut cut away and get to the core of who I am. How do I express myself in all aspects of life, whether it's business, romantic relationships with family, and I actually have a list right here I don't know if you can see it and these are my I am statements to remind me every single day of the essence of who I am.
Mike Maddock:Welcome to the your Seat at the Table podcast with your host, idea Monkey Mike Maddock and Ringleader John Tobin. We're two founders a serial entrepreneur and a billion-dollar operator who talk to leaders about how, when and why they made their most pivotal decisions in life. Join us as we share wisdom, mistakes and a few laughs, learning from the brightest minds in business today. So this is an exciting day because John and I get to speak to my friend Senator and fighter pilot, martha McSally Martha, welcome fighter pilot Martha McSally.
Martha McSally:Martha welcome, Thank you, I'm John.
Mike Maddock:It is always lovely to see you. Thanks for making some time for us. Okay, so I want you to tell our listeners some of your story and then we will ask deep, dark, probing questions about it. But you were the first fighter pilot female fighter pilot to fly in combat, and then you wound up being a US senator. Could you just fill in the gaps for us? What sort of fill in? We'll just sit here for the next 45 minutes. You talk Go.
Martha McSally:Exactly so. It was back in 1996. So I grew up youngest of five kids in Rhode Island. Dad came from humble circumstances, served in the Navy and was very driven to make a better life for us kids. I didn't know any of this at the time, Of course. I was just a kid from his hard work and my life was really deeply impacted when he suddenly passed away when I was 12.
Martha McSally:In fact, it was coming up this week, August 7th. It'll be oh math in public 47 years ago. That, literally one day, if you can think about like, you're just hanging out with the family playing at the beach and then he went upstairs, was lying down, didn't feel well and over the course of those next 24 hours he passed away. He was in the hospital and very stable and, um, I didn't know what a heart attack was again I was 12. So my, my mom came home. My brother said hey, he's gonna have a long recovery, we're going to need to help him.
Martha McSally:I was like, all right, that's cool, didn't have any fear, went to bed, you know, not feeling any fear. But then my brothers woke me up in the middle of the night. My dad just knew in his spirit he was going to pass and he was like get my children now and so I didn't understand any of this at the time just got thrown into a car in a rainstorm and I was like, what the you know we? So we spent some time with him and he just like knew he was going to pass. So he spent some time talking to us. It wasn't something like daughter, I'm leaving you. But you know, of course, when those end up being the last conversations, you're playing them over and over in your head. And we talked about a lot of mundane things in life, Like life is in the mundane, you know, like the dog and sports and school and all that.
Martha McSally:And then somewhere in that conversation he told me to make him proud and then he the next day had another heart attack and I mean my life just took a trajectory change. Anybody who's got 12-year-old, you know, adolescent kids, those are tough years anyway. And then my mom God bless her single mom, five kids hit with this two-by-four and she immediately went back to school, got her master's degree, back to work and so and this is back in the time like nobody's going through counseling, we just like suck it up, move on, yeah. And so I think back like the drive from the grief, like my life changed all of a sudden. Nothing was safe, like everything was uncertain, like I was sort of like, uh, finding my own way. I was was, you know, deeply grieving but also driven to make my dead father proud. So that's like what a chip.
Mike Maddock:what a chip to carry in your shirt. I'll never watch Saving Private Ryan again without thinking about you. Like did I make you proud? Yeah, that must be sitting on your shoulder your whole life, like I gotta make my dad proud.
Martha McSally:Like. In many ways it served me so well because where I could have gone off the deep end and I could have chosen different ways to deal with my pain and my grief, I had this tension of the grief and the tumult and the kind of deep spiritual churning I wouldn't have called it that at the time an emotional churning, but also this like make your can we swear on this podcast?
Mike Maddock:Yeah, I wish you would.
Martha McSally:Make your fucking father proud. You know, get your shit together, mcsally, right. And so like, on the one hand, I would say I'm so grateful for it because it served me right. It made me make good choices even before I had unpacked my shit and healed from it all. It had me pushing towards doing something meaningful with my life and seeing every day as a gift and I think my own journey, you know, filling in a lot of the gaps here. It served me until it didn't just, like many things and many of you who are listening, you may be trying to prove somebody wrong. It may have been a positive thing, like mine was kind of positive. It may have been a negative thing, like there's so many people, mostly men I meet who are trying to prove their father that they're worth it right, that they're enough that they can make you know something of themselves, mostly because they were told they wouldn't. And sometimes the father's long in the grave and they're still chasing this ghost Like am I good enough? Am I good enough? Am I good enough? And so I will say, hey, that served you because it made you do something meaningful with your life. It made you provide for your family and yourself and push yourself beyond your limits, but at some point, like you got to stop chasing that ghost, you got to like look in, look inside, you got to let go of that shit. You got to do the inner work and I remember I mean I'm just, you know, going to fast forward I was in a breathwork session, like I don't know.
Martha McSally:It was like three, four years ago. It was like deep, one hour breathwork session and I remember, you know, I had come to a place where, like, of course, I made him like talk about the final freedom. It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter whether I make any other person on this planet proud. I'm here on my journey, right, I've got to do what I came here to do. You know, I got to get to that place of kind of doing the inner work and getting the inner peace and and you know, being a part of my purpose, and unpacking the shit that isn't mine and letting it fall away, and it doesn't matter whether I make anybody proud. So that was the ultimate like freedom when I came to that place.
Martha McSally:So yeah, I didn't get into the rest of the bio, but you know I love that.
Mike Maddock:I love the.
Mike Maddock:I'm drinking my protein shake by the way, After that kind of workout, you got to eat some protein. I wrote in Plan D that I'd never met a really successful person that wasn't either chasing a coast or being chased by one. The question is, who's chasing who? And I think that one of the things that makes you such a great coach and a good friend, Martha, is that you are so self-reflective, You're willing to share, Like. You've had some other struggles that I'm aware of in life that you, you know they didn't knock you down, they just stood you back up, and you're so much about grit, so thank you, for I just want to thank you for demonstrating you know what what transparency and humility and authenticity sounds like from someone that has done all kinds of firsts you know like. So anyway, thank you.
John Tobin:Grit's a good word there, Mike.
Mike Maddock:Yeah.
John Tobin:So why the military, though? Like Martha, did you have relatives or you know some somebody, his dad, right, right, my dad.
Martha McSally:My dad served before I was born but honestly again, anybody who's got teenagers knows how flaky they are, right. So here I am, this flaky teenager trying to make my dead father proud. Um, the fifth kid trying to go to college with a single mom. I also like I've got this rebellious spirit and I was like man, left to my own devices. I could go in any direction here. I wouldn't have used those words at the time and I also, as Mike knows, I mean here I am now a fatherless, innocent teenager grieving.
Martha McSally:I was then abused by a high school coach so like just deeper, who was like a father figure to me, just like deeper wounds going on. And so I honestly was looking for a way to get a good education, to not settle my mom with debt and to keep me on a good path. And again, it was more of an inner knowing I wouldn't have used these terms. But I went to the Air Force Academy, sort of randomly, honestly, like just randomly, like I'll try going there, but I thought it actually checked all the boxes where I pay back in service. The challenge and the discipline would sort of take my rebellious energy and put it into something positive.
Martha McSally:I get a good education. I wouldn't put my mom in debt. You know I would get away from my perpetrator. I'm just being honest. I knew I needed to physically get away from him for my survival, so it checked all those boxes but I had no idea what he was doing. Like any 17 year old, I got on an airplane with combat boots and bras that's what they told us to bring and I was in the ninth class that allowed women and I didn't want to be a pilot.
Martha McSally:I thought I wanted to be a doctor which over time I realized was more connected with losing my dad. It was about saving other kids from that grief. But I had to let that go because it wasn't my path. But when I got to the academy I was motion sick as a kid.
Martha McSally:When I got to the academy I found out that it was against the law for women to be fighter pilots and I was like what? This is the first time in my life I was told I couldn't do something because I was a girl and I was like it just pissed me off and I was like, well, that's exactly what I'm going to do. You know, I'm going to be a fighter pilot. And everyone was like it's against the law. And I'm like I don't care, I live in America, you know laws change and so I just put this dream in my heart and I just would refused to give up on it, like I just willed it into existence in my life.
Martha McSally:It took about 10 years, but I literally there was no doubt. It wasn't. I hope I will. I may be it was. I am a fighter pilot and I'm going to fucking make this happen. I'm going to break down walls, I'm going to blow them up and do whatever it takes, and nearly a decade later, I had nothing to do with the change, but I was in the right place at the right time, with the right grit and the right qualifications, and I had earned it. You know, just because I had ovaries, they wouldn't let me go fly fighters, and so they looked and saw, you know who they wanted to select to go first, and I was selected.
Mike Maddock:So just because I had I think you just wrote a t-shirt, just because I have ovaries, you know, john Ratliff introduced you as he's like the first time I ever met Is a badass and I love that. I love that he did that because you are you. Eventually, I'm jumping ahead, but I want to make that. I want to make the. I want to hear from you how this story, this, this, this how you got to be a fighter pilot served you being a senator, because it feels like you went from one hostile environment for women into another environment that isn't exactly welcoming. So how did that serve you, or not? Do you think you were a good politician?
Martha McSally:No, I don't know. No, because I'm not a politician.
Martha McSally:But, yeah that's a whole other story After I retired, you know, 26 years in the military and I was a professor over in Germany at a place called the Marshall Center. I was living in the German Alps, I was paragliding at lunch, I mean, it was just like it was a really nice life. But I found myself yelling at the TV and I just can't help it. Part of who I am I can't walk by a problem. Much to the frustration of people who love me in my life, whether that's like a stray dog on the street or just something that I go by, I'm like I can't walk by a problem.
Martha McSally:So I, you know, I was just found myself going these idiots in DC, what are they doing? And, you know, look myself in the mirror like, well, what are you going to do about it? I'm like, oh God, no, no, no, no. The Teddy Roosevelt quote. You know, the man in the arena is in my office over here. It's spoken to me since I was a teenager and I felt this call to duty that I resisted. This is kind of my pattern.
John Tobin:I get these big you know, it's kind of a hero's journey.
Martha McSally:I get these big calls to action. I'm like no, no, no, no, no, send somebody else. You know when.
John Tobin:I resist and I fight.
Martha McSally:And eventually I'm like all right, let's go. So you know it's a crazy story. I mean, I quit my professorship, got on a plane, came home and said I'm running for Congress, what do I do? File paperwork somewhere. I had no idea what I was doing, but it was just this purpose driven, the same thing that was inside me when I served in uniform and a different combat zone, much more complicated.
Martha McSally:When you go into battle in Afghanistan, you know you fly. You know often, you know with two or four, you have a wingman with you and you know you back each other up, you support each other. And you know, in Washington DC your wingman's like shooting you down all the time. So it's a hostile place, that's for sure. But I think the intangibles, the soft skills I had about, like stay focused on the mission, don't get distracted by you know people shooting at you that are below your altitude, like stay on the mission, do something meaningful, get the mission done. What's possible, what's doable, what's possible. It helped me not get distracted by all the ridiculousness and all the attacks. You know, long after I'm dead there'll be these crazy lying TV commercials about me on the internet.
Mike Maddock:But I'm like hey, you know, I got a mission to do, just like, don't let that bother you. So I think those skills really. So I'm going to break a rule here and I my rule. But I remember yelling at the TV when President Trump said I like my heroes not to be captured, and I lost my freaking mind because, like you, my father is in the Navy. And I was like, are you? I like I wanted to throw a shoe at the TV set because it was so it just it was like I lost it. Did that have anything to do with your desire to be in politics?
Martha McSally:I was already actually in office.
Mike Maddock:Oh, you were.
Martha McSally:Yeah, I served my first two years under President Obama.
John Tobin:Okay, I missed that, and then I was in the.
Martha McSally:House and the Senate under President Trump. And look, I worked with President Trump. I had a good relationship with him. I flew on Air Force One many times. I was in the Oval Office a lot. You know, his strengths and weaknesses are on display every single day, as you can see. But I just found that I mean my first meeting with him. Actually I'll share with you guys. So I'm in the Oval Office like first time, really big deal. Like here's this little veteran from you know grew up in Rhode Island, small town. Like what am I doing here? I'm in the Oval Office and I was in this group of people. We were talking about a bill we were working on and I was.
Martha McSally:I had a reputation of being pragmatic and being a problem solver. I was the vice chair of the problem solving caucus, which is seems like an oxymoron with Congress, but really trying to get things done. And so we're in this group. I'm the only woman story in my life. It's all Republicans and we're introducing ourselves to him. And I just decided I don't know, there's something in my head that I was like I've been dealing with personalities like his my whole life, right? Just watch Top Gun big fighter pilot. You know all that. You know, just kind of, I was just going to treat him like very edgy and I thought this is either going to work or it's really not going to work.
Martha McSally:But I just decided to be edgy with him and I said something like you know, princess trump, I'm martha mcsally. Uh, I represent arizona. I'm the only, I think. I said something like I'm the only female veteran in the gop. You know caucus in the house and he goes. Really what you know? What did you do? What did you serve? And I said I flew the a-10 warthog and, like a lot of people don't know one plane from the other unless they're like plane buffs, right, so he goes, you know, tell me about it. And I got a warthog right here. So here it is. It's beautiful, did you?
Mike Maddock:bring the model into the Oval Office.
Martha McSally:Wow, I did not have it with me. I just happened to have it in my purse, president Trump, I just happened to have one, so I said it's a badass airplane with a big gun on it, right, it's just like I'm talking to him like a fighter pilot, right, and, of course, a big gun, right, it's a badass airplane with a big gun on it and keep in mind like the Obama administration was getting rid of it and this was like a big deal.
Martha McSally:I was trying to stop that from happening. And so I was like we were there to talk about health care. But like this is my moment man like, save the A-10. And so he's like tell me more about it. And so I started telling him about it. I was like we show up when Americans are under fire on the ground and you know, we take out the enemies so they can live to fight another day and get home to their family. And there's nothing like it in the inventory. And he's like well, I was just bringing him in. He's like, well, we're still flying it right. And I was like well, Thank you for asking.
Martha McSally:Thank you for the. You know, and I seriously like this was where I decided like this is either going to be amazing or I'm going to be escorted out of the Oval Office. So I said, well, the Obama administration has tried to put it in the boneyard, because I knew he wouldn't want to do anything. That Obama did right. And I looked at him and I'm sitting right across from him and I was like, but you're going to have to pry it out of my cold dead hands, mr President. And everybody is looking at me like, oh my god, what is Obama doing?
Mike Maddock:that's so well played.
Martha McSally:It felt like an eternity and I'm just looking at him like oh god, oh god, and it's either going to be brilliant or like awful, you know, and so I really like her.
Mike Maddock:There's something about her I like, I like it like we gotta save this plane.
Martha McSally:He looks over at his like team and he's like we gotta save this plane. You know executive order. Executive order I mean next thing, you know, you know we save. Of course now biden get rid of it, but it yeah that was the way I introduced myself to him as a little sidekick. That's an awesome story.
Mike Maddock:That's awesome. Do you? Did you? Would you have stuck with politics? I know like there. I know enough about Arizona to know you have to be it's. It's pretty. You know either far right, far left right. It's hard to be in the middle right and you're in the middle.
Martha McSally:So right, and you're a middle off my notifications because my cgm is saying that my something bad is happening no, I'm just doing it for longevity, but it's my blood sugar's dropping, I guess, and it's oh, you want to stop and have a snack no, I'm good, I'm good all right um politics.
Mike Maddock:Would you stick with it?
Martha McSally:I. To me it was a different. It was a mission to a different combat zone. It was very much a part of who I am to just serve and make a difference where you can.
Martha McSally:I was very practical, which is not typical there, just trying to solve real problems. I had to put up with the politics and so, on the one hand, I would say it was one of the highest honors of my life to be a United States Senator. I mean, I literally have the chair from where I sat in the US Senate, over in the corner of my living room, and sometimes I'm like, did it really happen, you know? So it was an honor. I fought for the people of Arizona. I got a lot of things done. I mean I was named the ninth most effective member of Congress my freshman term in the House. Wow, because I just was relentlessly legislating and trying to solve problems for real people, whether it's farmers, ranchers, veterans, small business owners. So I stayed in those trenches and really tried to do meaningful work. But it was also, at the same time, the most frustrating thing I've done in my life.
John Tobin:So at the same time, I was like, very honored to serve.
Martha McSally:You know, proud of what I did to make a difference. Most frustrating thing in my life and as much as I tried to hang on to the seat there was a lot of dynamics that happened that I was very aware of didn't hold on to the seat and I mean I'm grateful that I served and I also thank God every day that that chapter in my life is over.
Mike Maddock:So you don't think you'll do it again. If someone came to you tomorrow and said we need you, we need you for this mission, you are the person you'd say no.
Martha McSally:I joke that if Jesus spoke audibly in English through my golden retriever like no, I am a generated but actual boomer speaking then I would think about it, but probably not it's kind of funny people.
Martha McSally:I don't want to go down this rabbit hole because it's very contractive to most people to be thinking about politics. But it's funny that most people say we don't want career politicians and they want people to come from life experiences, go in and serve and then leave. And that's what I did, like my. One of my superpowers, for sure, I've realized, is that my identity is not attached to these external things. That I do and that's difficult for a lot of us is we have a title, whether it's Colonel, fighter, pilot, senator, entrepreneur, wife, you know, husband, mother, father and when something shifts either we sell a company or we leave the military, or we go through a divorce or we empty nest and our identity shifts we can feel very unstable, right, because our identity has been attached to these external things and my superpower is very much like all right, that phase is over, let's move on. Because my identity is attached to kind of the deeper essence of who I am.
Martha McSally:And so I haven't been back to DC in like four years. People are like why have you not gone back there? And I said I've not gone back to Afghanistan either. You know, these are places I deployed. That season is over and I'm now moving on and I'm in the private sector and I'm thriving. And then people are like, well, no, we need you. Why are you running again? I'm like I thought you said you don't want career politicians, like you can't have it both ways, you know so it's been funny.
John Tobin:I'm curious like you talk about that. I think of it as compartmentalizing, Something that I feel like I do pretty well. Once I'm in one situation, I can be in that situation and take myself out of another. Is that partly like? The mission-based thing or like. Is that military training in a way? To be compartmentalized, would you say or would you categorize it that way?
Martha McSally:I can say it's just for my own journey, that I think it's my kind of emotional and spiritual journey of growth where I found that I, you know, I'm here to express a unique essence of the person, that I am right, we're all unique essence. You know, whatever your spiritual beliefs are right, there is a divine nature. Whether you agree with it or not, there's some divine nature out there, whatever your dogma is. So I have a unique expression here on this planet that is uniquely me, like a snowflake, and the core of that is not necessarily the uniform, it's not the senator title. The core of that are deeper and words, words are not enough to capture it. But I think about it like when Michelangelo was asked about the sculpture, the David and I think it was, the Pope said how did you do this? And he said it was easy. I just cut away anything that wasn't the David. So I believe it.
Martha McSally:Somebody else's life or somebody else's expectations of you, we're like, we're all doing that to some degree and for me my journey has been like all right, those are good, interesting things that I did and I'm grateful for them, but it's not my identity. Let's cut, cut away and get to the core of who I am. How do I express myself in all aspects of life, whether it's business, romantic relationships, with family, and like. I actually have a list right here. I don't know if you can see it, I did it. Yeah, we can see it. And these are my I am statements to remind me every single day of the essence of who I am.
Martha McSally:So, when I'm making a decision, do I want to take that meeting? Do I want to join that board? Do I want to be partnering with this business? Do I want to join that board? Do you know? Do I want to be partnering with this business? You know, do I want to go? Whatever related to family, I am unbreakable, I am courageous, I am integrity, I am generous, growing, relentless, anti-fragile, funny, adventurous. Love, strong, feminine, passionate, determined, like that's where that's describes. If this were my 80th birthday toast or my eulogy, these are the words that I would hope people would use who got to experience me in all facets of life.
John Tobin:So that to me is the deeper journey. When did you really like, almost codify that, Like when did you actually document that? I know for myself. There's probably things about me that haven't changed since I was a little little kid, but I never said that. I said I was this or said I was that. Um, until my adult life, when I really reflected upon who I am and what are my values and things like that. Was that something that you did as an like, almost like, after your dad died, or like?
Martha McSally:in the military or now in reflection as an adult.
Martha McSally:But, yeah, this was just in the last few years that I part of why I codified this was, I found in my keynote speaking, especially as I'm speaking to corporate leaders and entrepreneurs and others there was this deeper expression of who I am that I was showing on stage, that I was even just trying to be like what is that Like? What is that message about? Like, yeah, I was sometimes wear my flight suit when I speak, but like, this isn't me, and it actually was totally birthed when I was speaking at a Genius Network annual event a few years ago and I just felt inspired about 72 hours prior to do a completely different speech than what I was thinking about, to speak directly to these driven entrepreneurs who were like my people right. Like they're just, they're my people who are very driven, who, many of them, have not unpacked their shit yet either. Some of them have started. They're chasing or running away from ghosts, right. They've got some unhealed trauma. They've got some addiction issues. They're chasing a number, they're ADHD. I love that Like, these are my people, right. And so I just wanted to be able to be that example to them of like it's okay to take a deep breath and to take some time to look inward, to be like, wait a minute, my identity isn't attached to being an entrepreneur or what this number is that I'm chasing. And so I literally, like, took my flight suit off I obviously wasn't stripping, but I had tights and something. I just I took it off and I was like this isn't me, this is not me, what's truly me. And then, as I was thinking, my message like what is truly me.
Martha McSally:And I had another layer, which was a bunch of negative feelings, because oftentimes when we lose, when we lose our identity attached to these things that make us feel useful and successful, then we feel uncertain, right, we lose our footing, and so we sometimes then get stuck in like I'm not enough, like I'm, you know, sad, I feel abandoned, whatever, like, whatever those feelings are, we attach our identity to that. So I had another t-shirt and I had just been through, I had been attacked by a guy while I was out running, like a few weeks prior. So I was trying to show like trauma doesn't need to get stuck in you, and I'm on that journey right now and I'm showing you how to make sure it doesn't get stuck in you. And but these are the feelings that I've been feeling as I went to look at what's happening and I had them on my shirt and and I just you know I had everybody kind of sit in what their negative feelings are and I eventually kind of peeled to the next layer, which was these words.
Martha McSally:But it actually took me doing the work, and not just me reflecting on it, but me reaching out to a handful of people who love me to say what words would you use to describe me? And I and I would encourage everybody to do this Spend some time just journal tonight, like brainstorm, prime the pump. Do five, 10, 20 words like what would describe you noun, verb, adjective doesn't matter. And then ask five people who love you, text five words that would describe you if this was your 80th birthday toast Don't say eulogy, people get weird about it. Say 80th birthday, what would you use to describe me? And some of these words on here actually came from my closest friends, because I didn't see them, I didn't have generous on my list, and they were like Martha, you are one of the most generous people we know. And I had to sit with that and meditate on it. I'm like, yeah, that's true.
Mike Maddock:So that's the journey I went through, and I encourage everybody to do it, john we did a retreat years ago with Rich Hill, who's a great coach, and it was a forum retreat, very similar. You had your Brene Brown moment. He forced us to have ours where we had to. He called it writing a constitution and you had to constitute yourself, which is what you just did. This is who I am, this is what I believe in. These are my values, this is what I stand for. This is who I am. This is what I believe in, these are my values, this is what I stand for. And he filmed us. We had to get it up in front of everyone. He filmed us doing it, and then you had to sit there and watch yourself giving your constitution to the rest of the group, and then you turn around and had everybody critique it, which is to say is that, mike Wow what's missing from mike?
John Tobin:what's what?
Mike Maddock:is, does that sound like?
Martha McSally:and when you see yourself saying who you are, it becomes very apparent when you're full of shit like, and then we did it again and again, yeah, and it was cutting away anything that isn't the mic right, it's super useful because when you land on that, you just like your list.
Mike Maddock:How many of your friends you have that have on their mirror in their bathroom. It's like this is who I am, this is who I am, and it's you know they remind themselves of, like this is what I'm in flow. What a great share Did you no let's also Mike, really quick.
Martha McSally:It's helpful when you do that, which again takes a little bit of time and reflection and cutting away all the bullshit, but when you have it like for me, visible stuff matters right. So I've got it just matters Because then when the decision making the key is decision making when something comes up and it's a yes or no, you can say does this align with the essence of who I am? Yes or hell, yes or no? Is this feel expansive or contractive? Is this? Am I doing this for somebody else? You know, am I doing it to please somebody or am I doing it because it's my journey? And that's not selfish, that's just aligned.
Mike Maddock:And when you have competing values, when, when there's a decision and you've got that list of who you are and it's a four to three, that's where it's really so what I see is when leaders get absolutely caught up in their own chain, it's because they've got competing values. Yes, I'm generous, but I'm also. This other thing and another friend of mine, jonathan Domsky. He actually coaches people through a process where they list all their values and they're like okay, tell me why this isn't aligned. And he, it's almost like a vote and it becomes what he rank your values.
Mike Maddock:What's the number one value? Yeah, I mean it's. It's pretty intense, so so anyway that's.
Martha McSally:that's the other thing I do is again, when I have a deeper time to go with, people is like, okay, you've come up with your list. That's amazing. You feel really good about it. All right, how does your schedule align with that, With each of those?
Mike Maddock:right Calendar checkbook yeah, how does your?
Martha McSally:bank account. Yeah, exactly, how does your checkbook align with it, right? Because again, and it's not to beat yourself, up, be easy on yourself.
Martha McSally:But be easy on yourself. But if you say you're a family man and then we look at your calendar and you're just never spending time with anyone, but in your mind you're like, but I'm providing for them, I'm working my ass off and I'm never around because I'm providing for them, why don't you ask them whether they prefer your time or more money? I mean, just have those conversations and hey, I'm an abundance mindset. There's nothing wrong with making a crap load of money, right? But when you're drowning yourself with a work addiction, thinking that somehow you're providing for your family, that means you're a family man. Your family may feel differently about that. So just be easy on yourself. But be honest with yourself about all right, am I a family man or am I not? You know, like if I say that's my high priority, then maybe I do need to take a look at my calendar and be more intentional about it and do it with compassion.
Mike Maddock:Again, not self-judgment.
John Tobin:Yeah, both in the military and then in the government roles you've had, you're surrounded by a ton of pressure, and we're talking about values. Did you did that ever really get tested in any of those situations Like where it's like I kind of had to make a call and it wasn't exactly true to my values, but you know, I talked myself into it or this is how I navigated it. I don't know, can you talk about that?
Martha McSally:Because we're talking a lot about values and things like that.
Martha McSally:In Congress. You know, the founding fathers created the system to be frustrating by design, right? So it's not happening unless it's deeply supported by the vast majority of the country, like 75% of the states or two thirds of the, you know, the Congress. And so there's this outward pressure of you know. Okay, we've got the House, the Senate, the White House. Let's jam through an agenda of everything that the 51% want is you know not what the 49% want, and so I would tell you there want. Is you know not what the 49% want? And so I would tell you there was this. You know, there was this expectation by a number of constituents who were like we want 100% of what we want 100%, and if you're voting on something, if it's not 100% of what we want, then you better vote no, otherwise we're going to primary. You, right? And so I would, you know, have to keep my big girl pants on every day, right? It's like, okay, are you married? Do you ever get 100% of what you want? Are you in business? Do you ever get 100% of what you want? You never get 100% of what you want.
Martha McSally:So I had to make the call, especially representing a very diverse constituency, like very, very purple constituency of when. You know, I try to shape legislation along the way, but then ultimately, when it came to the floor, I had a binary vote yes or no. Yes or no. Now you can complain about the bill, you can bitch about it, you can be like why is it this way? At that moment in time I have one decision yes or no. And if it's a 75 25, like okay, like I know, I'm gonna still get attacked by both directions for the one sentence that somebody doesn't like in there. That'll get turned into millions of dollars of tv ads. But 75 25, those were easy votes.
Mike Maddock:51 49, those were very you're doing the John McCain thing remember Very difficult moments. It's like that moment. That's a famous moment in time.
Martha McSally:Yeah, there were just times where I was like, oh God, like I hate a lot of what is in this bill, right, but at this moment in time, is it better than the status quo? Is it moving us forward in the right direction? I know I may go down in flames politically, I really tried to vote my conscience, vote practically I can't. You know, I would say for the most part I can't think of one that was like, oh God, why did I do that? Like where I felt pressure, I just I felt the pressure, but I really tried to look at what are the facts, what is this going to do? And then I would say what is this going to do to me politically?
Martha McSally:But I wouldn't be driven by, like a lot of people, what is this going to be doing? You know what is this going to do to me politically? A lot of people, I would call them the vote no, but hope yes. Caucus, where they just were afraid to actually do the right thing. They know a thumbs up was the right thing to do, given the two choices, but they would rather protect their ass from a primary.
Mike Maddock:And so they would wait for people like me to stand up and vote yes to get it across the finish line. And then they vote no to save their asses. So that's not happening anymore. I'm just thankful, yeah. So here are two related questions.
Martha McSally:Do you have any? Well, you have. I've done in my life.
Mike Maddock:Well, okay, a politics aside, what leadership quality is missing? Do you think in in in general, like what do you wish you saw more of? In leadership at large?
Martha McSally:Courage.
Mike Maddock:So what does that mean? I?
Martha McSally:think it's. I mean it means and I want to talk business leadership, because that's who your audience is right. I think the courage to face what's going on external dynamics, internal dynamics right. Look at it clearly, with clarity, not based on ego or being driven by fear. Like what's happening in the marketplace, what's happening in our industry, what's happening with AI, what's actually disrupting? Like what's happening within our workforce, why are we having these challenges? Look at it with clarity and make sure you get all the information you can so you do have an objective view, but then make a courageous decision to do the right thing, whatever that is, even if it's, even if there's a downside. You know you protect against the downside the best you can. But we got to move forward with courage instead of hanging in fear. You know, like not to decide is to decide Right or hoping things are going to not change. They're always going to be changing. This is this is, you know, this is life, this is business, this is the market. So I think the courage and this is top leaders and middle level middle level leaders. So I think the courage and this is top leaders and middle level middle level leaders right to be like give them autonomy. Give them direction, delegate with appropriate authority, but also make sure they can't read your mind. This is another area that I see all the time in my consulting and my board of directors roles where leaders get frustrated with delegation like they just can't do, just do it myself, like well, they can't read your mind. So you need to come up with some tools to communicate clearly, to understand the level of kind of you know leash you have on them for the delegated task, for the report back to you, for the oversight, for the training, like that's on you as a leader. If they're not doing it, then it's your responsibility to train them up to communicate more clearly, to have the follow-up and to let them thrive, right.
Martha McSally:So you've heard of Gay Hendricks zone of genius, zone of excellence, zone of competence, zone of incompetence. And as leaders we're often zone of genius is obvious. It's where we're operating all at our very best, the wind at our back, it builds our energy, where it's our absolute genius. Where we get in trouble as leaders is we operate often in our zone of excellence and we don't delegate that to others. That can be their zone of genius if you actually train them up for it. But again, that takes courage right.
Martha McSally:So an environment of allowing some risk taking, environment of allowing some risk taking within some you know parameters and allowing people to be creative and to be able to kind of operate within an area of like let them go run and see you know what kind of you know feedback they get from some initiative they have and see what happens with it and really empowering people. We're in a place where the workforce is you can complain about it or not but they're tired of being treated like sergeants, have generals barking at them telling them what to do. The workforce is not going to operate that way anymore. So if leaders can actually have the courage to empower people instead of just treat them like you're just barking orders at them, then actually it can be a 10x growth for everybody, where every person on the team actually also feels the abundance from the way the growth is happening.
Martha McSally:So I think courage is really one of the biggest things. The second thing I would say is, as leaders the authentic leadership you don't have to show up at work in the morning and be like oh my God, I got in a fight with my wife and I've got a drinking. You don't have to show up at work in the morning and be like, oh my God, I got to fight with my wife and I've got a drinking you don't have to overshare, but although it's way, more fun.
Mike Maddock:It's way more fun when you have a boss that does that.
Martha McSally:It's OK for you to be a little authentic about like you know, hey guys, like I don't know if this is going to work and I've actually got a feeling in the pit of my stomach that I'm not sure if this is going to work I want to hear your feedback on it. Let's try it together. Let's try and set ourselves up for success but, like, show a little bit of vulnerability and authenticity about the fear you're feeling or about the uncertainty you're feeling, or maybe you know even, from time to time, a little personal share. Like man, I had a rough weekend, I get. The kid was sick, I, you know, I'm just concerned about their health and how's your family doing there. That connect, that human connectedness, is so important and I think, as we get more and more into what AI is going to be doing in our society, people are going to be craving the human connectedness and, as a leader, that you have to lead the way, to open yourself up, to have an appropriate level of that connectedness.
Martha McSally:So people feel value, they feel known, they feel seen and then they will like take the mountain for you All right, I want to ask both of you a question about what you were talking about with courage and empowerment.
John Tobin:And I feel and again, maybe this is literally just me and my business or our business, I think, but I feel like we went through a period where we were way ahead of the game with empowerment that was always our talk track and having of having this my word servant leader mindset and really like that.
John Tobin:We led with that. I feel like that was a company and it became trendy in the two like 2010-ish to 2015-ish timeframe, but recently and maybe this is like a COVID thing, a COVID hangover that it's gone away from that. Where it's not as empowerment, you must do this, you have to do this. Maybe it really is a COVID thing, like where CEOs had to start saying you have to come back to work.
John Tobin:And they had to put their foot down, and maybe it's political even. But I'm curious do you feel in your life, do you agree with that cycle? Yes, no, we're definitely in that cycle.
Martha McSally:I see it with all the companies I work with where there's like this push, pull right and so, uh, where the teammates and the employees are feeling like extremely constrained, covid basically had them go like, oh, I'm spending more time and I'm dropping my kid off at work and I can actually then get my work done at a you know time frame that works for me and it fits within the rest of my life and and that was kind of allowed. And then it probably got a little too loosey goosey in some places, right. And so then you've got this like dynamic, where now leaders are pulling it back in. And so then you've got this like dynamic, where now leaders are pulling it back in. Now we're going back to dictatorial and it's got to be all directed exactly what you do, exactly when. And so I think that doesn't help, because then people resist, right, even though the quiet quitting and all that seems to be happening a little bit less. That's more about, especially in white collar work like less opportunities are opened up for people, especially entry level, right, they can't just be moving around as much. So I think like we both have a part in this the leader and the teammate.
Martha McSally:The teammate needs to be willing to like, show up and fucking work, okay, like, if you want to get a paycheck, you have to work right. So let's just be honest about this. This isn't a vacation. This isn't a you know, kindergarten. This is a. You're going to stretch yourself. You're not going to work for six months and then you get to be the CEO. Like. You actually have to learn some skills. You have to gain some mastery, like expectation management. I'm trying to be, you know, gentle, responsible of like. It's going to be a long ass path for you to gain mastery, for you to be in any sort of leadership position. This is the path you can see yourself on, but at some point you just need to grind in things that maybe you don't want to do, because that's what's needed to happen. But you're not going to grind forever. Like let me kind of show you a path of where you can go in this industry.
Martha McSally:So, on the one hand, the you know the teammate needs to show up and be willing to grind. You're not like, don't question everything and don't be like it doesn't work within my schedule all the time. On the other side of it is the leader. The reaction is like just barking orders and that is not going to work, because you're going to find people doing the absolute minimum. They're going to comply with the. I'm going to show up, but are they going to be creative? Are they going to be offering teammates to help them? Are they going to have new ideas? Are they going to stay late at night when it's needed? No, because they're going to be like fuck you. Sorry, I'm swearing a lot.
Mike Maddock:They're not going to feel that connection to the team.
John Tobin:Everybody has to come a little bit.
Martha McSally:It's like being in the neighborhood Everybody has to come a little bit towards each other, a little bit towards each other. I think one important element of this is and I can't remember the terms, I was listening to this a few months ago and I can't remember the terms but for a leader to tell the team that there are times that we have to do whatever it takes, like that term, like whatever it takes, like we might be working 16 hours a day because we've got to get this proposal in, because we think we might get this new client that could 5x our company. Like this is a whatever it takes 30, 60 day period. Cancel your vacations, do whatever. You know, we'll give bonuses at the end.
Martha McSally:This is a whatever it takes period. We're going to be in sympathetic nervous system the whole time and we're going, but you can't do that 365 days a year. So it's important for leaders to also have a season in between those of like it's good enough, what we're doing is good enough. Like you've got to put your work in, we've got to keep the machine going, the train moving on time. You know, people may have a little bit more flexibility and then we're getting back into another whatever it takes zone and it's important for the leader not to have an environment where everybody feels like every day of every year is whatever it takes, because that's just not practical. And what do they do? They kind of contract and do the minimum required.
Martha McSally:But any team I found in the military and the companies I work with, if you tell them this is what we're doing, this is the impact, this is how it's going to impact people's lives with our product. That's doing something meaningful, how it's going to impact your life and your family. Let's go take the hill. People will take the hill. And then it's like hey, when we get to the end of the quarter, we're going to take a little breather Right, everybody in, we're in.
John Tobin:Yeah, so John, responsibility on both sides there, the leader and kind of the employee. I really I always liked that way of thinking about it.
Mike Maddock:Sorry, mike, yeah, I just want to build on it, because I feel like now I'm the old man in the room. About 20 years ago we decided to split our company in half and give every other and there were two teams and your team got every other Friday off, but in order to do that, you had to come in at 7.30 and work till I don't know 5.30. So you're basically booking the time, and it was this unbelievable benefit, having 26 three-day weekends. And I remember feeling, even though I'd come into work, I'm like I don't have to work today, this is my day off. And then I started noticing that people were coming in at 7.35 and 7.45 and 8 o'clock and then leaving a little bit early. So I got annoyed and canceled the program. Meanwhile hold on. Meanwhile MacGuffin, this other company that I'm involved in, capped it. They've had it forever. So I misinterpreted.
Mike Maddock:I was counting time, for effort was what I was watching. You have to be grinding. I think this is a very complicated question, but an analogy would be like law firms If your whole culture is you've got to book hours, you've got to book hours, you've got to book hours, you've got to book hours and all of a sudden AI comes along and can do all that work in two minutes. Everything needs to change. So I think the nuance leader today has to be like this is how I'm going to judge the value you're creating. If you create this value, I don't care whether you do it in five minutes or 27 hours. Here's what I need you to do. So I think that's the difference. I think we live in a world now where people really want to make impact and they have these amazing tools to do it. So, as leaders, we have to say this is the impact we need to make. So it's kind of right in between. You know this conversation.
Martha McSally:Yeah, I agree. And look, we all, you know, we all study, read the books and listen to the podcast with all the productivity experts, right, Whether it's Cal Newport and Deep Work. Nobody is able to do deep work for 10 hours a day.
Martha McSally:They're just not so the truth is it's probably about 90 minute segments. They go in and get out. Then they need to take a break, go for a walk, clear the you know the neurological circuitry, maybe put a question out the universe and wait for the download to happen and then get back in. But even the most prolific authors will tell you like four hours of like deep writing is all their neurology can handle. So what are we considering?
Martha McSally:Work, and a lot of companies that started in COVID, a lot of companies have confused work with meetings and usually work is not happening in meetings. Usually meetings are a distraction and if they don't have an actual reason and an outcome and it can't be done asynchronously, I would encourage any company literally do a meeting audit, cancel all meetings. Well, I mean, this is a little extreme, but literally say, like the calendar is clear, there are no meetings on the calendar, and then you only get to add one back in If there's a very specific purpose, a very, very specific timeline, who needs to be there and why, what is the outcome and why it needs to be a collaborative meeting versus an asynchronous collaboration or an asynchronous communication, and have the minimum number of meetings possible and then let people do the deep work because, like work, that's teamwork and individual work, especially in this kind of knowledge. White collar companies that's actually getting squeezed out because of all these stupid meetings that are wasting their time.
Mike Maddock:Everybody plank during their meetings. You've got to plank the whole meeting, so that makes it makes them go really fast.
Martha McSally:Well, we used to call in the military. We would have like what's called daily stand up and it's actually called stand up for a reason, because everybody's standing and you just go around the room Like what is what's going on with everybody, what do you need for the mission? How do we solve the problem? Right here you huddle and then you go and so something like that. This isn't the Rockefeller habits and all that kind of stuff. Like just whatever the battle rhythm you need for your meetings, make sure they have a reason and then hold people accountable to the value they create. Make sure that's clear what they need to create. Don't have it be fuzzy and then allow them the time to do the deep work, but don't expect them to be doing 10 hours of deep work. It's just not happening. And that water cooler conversation actually can be where some new ideas come up, whether it's in person or you know, virtual, so allow room for that as well.
Mike Maddock:You just made Joe Polish and then Vern Harder smile, so well done, Okay. So I've got some rapid fire questions, but before we get to those I want to see if John has any other questions. And I also want to make sure I mentioned you're doing like hiking leadership trips, now right. Sure I mention you're doing like hiking leadership trips, now right. You said before we got on Machu Picchu, you're taking people on these and I can imagine that the conversations that are happening with leaders on these hikes are extraordinary. Do you want to say a little bit about that? It's unbelievable.
Martha McSally:Yes, what I found, mike, I'm in Martha 3.0. And so what I'm doing right now is I'm on the board of directors of a few companies. In fact I just rotated off one, so I have one opening in my board dance cards. If anybody out there wants an independent board director, is somebody like me. So that's part of what I do to help coach CEOs and advise companies as they grow in so many areas to include leadership stuff.
Martha McSally:And I'm doing keynote speaking and what I found was I just do a lot of adventure. I paraglide, I backpack. I mean I'm 59. I'm lifting the same weights I was in my 20s. I'm kicking ass. And what I found is people would come up. People would come up to me after a keynote and be like, can I go deeper with you? And I'm like I don't know, maybe. And they're like, can I go on an adventure with you? And I'm like maybe, kind of side hustle, high ticket, where I take a small number of people out on adventure experiences with me. I'm now partnering with guide companies so I don't have to be the one dealing with all the equipment and all that kind of stuff, and so we've done a couple of Grand Canyon trips. I'm taking some people into Havasupai Falls, which is this gorgeous place in the Grand Canyon, this weekend, and next one is the Inca Trail to Machu Picchu at the end of August. So I just do this a few times a year. You know people can get on my email list or follow me on social, but marthamixileycom is my website if you want to hear about the next ones that are coming up.
Martha McSally:What I've found is, for me, there's nothing like being out in nature and moving your body to give you the opportunity to more deeply connect with yourself, connect with your true essence. Like I've got you know up here, cut away anything that isn't the Martha right. Connect with each other, connect with the divine. There's just something powerful about being out in nature emotionally, energetically, spiritually and it's just different than being in a conference room with fluorescent lights, even though people can have transformational experiences on retreats. But I've just found that moving your body, doing something challenging and being connected with yourself and each other and nature, that's where we can really go deep. That's where it's like don't bullshit me. What's really going on in your business? What's really going on in your marriage? Really going on in your business? What's really going on in your marriage. Like what do you, what decisions do you need to make when you get out of this Canyon that are going to help you? Uh, unpack your shit and actually thrive and take off. And it has been transformational. That's really cool.
Mike Maddock:Amazing.
John Tobin:And you're wrapping something yeah, the mind-body thing is huge and anytime I get even remotely stuck or frustrated, if I do something physical, even if it's just, you know, forcing myself to breathe a lot, it really does help. And I think I can imagine that you're taking these people on this journey. You can't help and you're being you journey. You can't help and you're being you so you can't help but get into them and really push them to some other limits and some other understanding of who they really are. I think that must be a really transformative experience for people.
Mike Maddock:Hey, john, I want to play your pimp for a second because you're not going to do it for yourself. John, I know that you are curious about being on boards and I know you're getting into the season of life where you've run a ginormous company or helped run a ginormous company, and now you're thinking, man, I probably could help other people by sitting on boards. Martha, what's a hack for John Like, if he wants to jump in boards? How do you find your way onto a board? What you're, you're welcome, john. How does that happen? There's no hack, I mean it's about?
Martha McSally:I use the analogy of it's like dating and getting married, but it's about being on a, you know, on a board it's gotta be the right fit for both of you. Uh, the board has got to be looking for somebody that brings your value and it's got to feel to you expansive and you're bringing value to them. You know there's competition. That's usually cash and or equity or both, depending on kind of where the company is in their growth process. And so you know you spend time to meet with each other and see if it's a good match. And then you know you get engaged, you go steady and then you decide. You know whether it's a good fit. So for me, all the boards that I've been on have come from a variety of different places. Most of them have come to me. Actually, I haven't been like I am going to. You know I'm looking for a board position.
Martha McSally:When I first left office, like Blackstone asked me to be their representative on a company. They were a minority holder and so we grew that company and then sold it to Honeywell, for example. I'm on another defense tech company. I was on a small manufacturing company. I'm on another professional services company that deploys accountants out. I'm looking to get into more of the health and the wellness space. Right now, I just feel like I do have this passion, additional passion, especially for women over 40 who are going through some changes in life, and I learned a lot of things somewhat the hard way, a little bit by being disconnected with my body back then and I've now been like, oh, I get what's going on and I go down rabbit holes to see what works for me and to do a lot of studying, and I feel like I'm 10 steps in front of a lot of these women who are at a place in life where they want to be thriving, but there's things going on that they don't totally understand, called perimenopause and menopause.
Martha McSally:But there's a way for them to be strong and healthy and fit and feeling amazing, both mind and body and I want to kind of encourage them on that journey. So I'm probably going to start a little online business that creates a community and a challenge for women over 40. So keep an eye out for that. But for boards, my passion is these days for my dance card to add something into health and the wellness space. I just feel, like you know, I have a lot of value to add and a lot of personal experience, again as somebody who's thriving at 59 postmenopausal in many ways and I want to be a part of helping other people really thrive in their lives uh, in mind, body and spirit.
Martha McSally:So I just encourage you to reach out to your networks. And you got to put a little board bio together about, like, what value do you add, what kind of experience do you have, and uh, and then just you know, see, it's like dating, it's like you gotta get on the dating apps and you got to go meet people for coffee.
John Tobin:Well, I haven't done that in a long time but meaning date been married 31 years now and probably seven years before that dating with my wife but who happens to be Mike's sister. So there you go there you go, Martha, offline, I'll introduce you to someone that is in that space. Betting on companies in that space Might be a fit there.
Mike Maddock:Perfect, I have someone too, martha, so we can help you. Way to put it out to the universe. The universe just heard you. At least two people in the universe, all right. So, john, permission to give.
John Tobin:Martha, some rapid fire, okay.
Mike Maddock:So, martha, don't think too hard. Very quickly Some questions Ready, I promise. I won't surprise you with one that's. You know, I don't promise anything, I take it back. All right, you kind of answered this one, so it should be easy If leadership were a sport. What's the one skill most people never practice enough?
Martha McSally:Practice sport. What's the one skill most people never practice enough. Practice enough um, I would say, facing their fears, courage perfect fears and overcoming courage.
Mike Maddock:Yeah, what's harder landing a jet in combat or walking into a donor meeting after a bad pole?
Martha McSally:clearly no, it's all good. I took the approach of like fundraising. I was like, look, I'm not doing this for me. You got more to lose than I do, so if you want to invest, make it rain.
Mike Maddock:make it rain, let's go.
Martha McSally:I literally was like I had the conversations I would have with donors. I'm like, uh, you got more to lose than I do.
Mike Maddock:I'm willing to be the quarterback but I kind of need an offensive line.
Martha McSally:It's up to you. I like it. I like it. What hill are you still willing to die on?
Mike Maddock:Freedom Okay.
Martha McSally:Individual freedom for people to live the lives that they want. One word to describe how you feel about conflating the military and politics. One word Conflating. That's the confusing part of the question Confused. It's not, there's no conflict, they're both. They were both missions, they were just different combat zones, so mission Okay good.
Mike Maddock:Service as well. No, it's a bad question. I asked the question wrong. Let's move on. That's what I meant. That's a great answer, it was a bad question.
Martha McSally:What's one habit that's made you unreasonably successful? Getting up early and moving my body? What's the best piece of bad advice you've ever gotten.
Mike Maddock:You can sleep when you're dead.
Martha McSally:I used to say Very good, Very good. I used to say very good, very good, important for our longevity and our restoration the ability to serve. So like don't screw around with your sleep, it's not a joke. Get some sleep.
Mike Maddock:Ask me about the sleep aid system sometime offline. It's pretty amazing. What's your fighter pilot call sign and what would your friend say it should have been?
Martha McSally:pilot call sign. And what would your friend say it should have been? It was wedge. And that's made wedge theory because I was constantly opening up my mouth and like pushing the envelope on stuff and it's. We always had this thing like hang on, if you're in trouble with the leadership, somebody will wedge you out shortly. And I was always wedging everybody else out, especially when I sued the secretary of defense for making service women more burkas. But that's a separate issue. I posted about this on social media recently. I was called little dipper for a while because when I was trying to fit in, when I first transitioned to fighters, I actually started chewing tobacco with them.
John Tobin:I was like I'm not gonna be a soldier.
Martha McSally:I'm gonna, I'll swear you, I'll drink you and I'm like I'll dip with you. So they were probably a little deeper for a while and I was like that's not funny, I don't want to be known for that. What?
John Tobin:would they say I don't know.
Martha McSally:I don't know what else they would say, but I was going to be the rebellious. Okay, so if you could have dinner with any woman leader in history. Why does it have to be a woman, mike? Why are you sexist?
Mike Maddock:because I am sexist, and all right, I've outed myself. If okay, let me.
Martha McSally:No, all right, do do any leader okay, actually I would, uh, if it was a woman, it would either be mother mary or mary magdalene. I would just love to get their perspective of how everything went down, especially.
John Tobin:Mary.
Martha McSally:Magdalene, that would be amazing. And for a man, I would say Abraham Lincoln. I would say Abraham Lincoln, this man, he failed so many times before he succeeded. People, just you know, labeled him as a failure and here he saved the country. And talk about courage and leadership yeah, yeah.
Mike Maddock:What would you ask him?
Martha McSally:how did he find the strength to stand alone and to stand in the fire and to make decisions, not knowing what the outcome is going to be, while so many lives were at stake? Like it, I, we all know, I mean I know this myself it's very lonely to be in a leadership position where the responsibility is only on you. I mean I saw this when I was a commander, when I was a colonel. I mean we were responsible for people's lives. Like this is not a joke. Like we, we were judged during execution. I mean I could put people in lives. Like this is not a joke. Like we, we were judged during execution. I mean I could put people in jail, I could take away their pay. Like it's very lonely when only you are making decisions and you take that small experience I have.
Martha McSally:And I mean, think about what Abraham Lincoln was dealing with. He didn't know how this was all going to end and it, you know, there was so many lives lost. But yeah, how did he, how did he have that inner strength, right To trust his gut, to have that knowing to make decisions and to stand with them? That takes, I'm, into the inner mastery. I would really want to know what his inner life? Perfect, you know.
Mike Maddock:He struggled with depression and all sorts of stuff and his wife was absolutely losing it so he had very little support at home. So he was getting it at home and at work.
John Tobin:Your strength is definitely coming through clearly.
Mike Maddock:Yeah, it is. It's inspiring, and the reason I asked you about women leadership is because you're a freaking role model. Okay, all right. If every CEO had to go through basic training, what's one drill you'd require?
Martha McSally:I used to lead what's called the bayonet assault course and it would. It was the hardest thing in basic training and it would just exhaust them and it would test their mental toughness and like people would be crying and quitting and it was the toughest, toughest thing out there. So tell them to do a Spartan race and it was the toughest, toughest thing out there so tell him to do a Spartan race, yeah.
John Tobin:Give him a little taste of it.
Mike Maddock:Yeah, yeah, Okay so here's the question I should have asked before the interview even started.
John Tobin:What's a question?
Martha McSally:you wish more interviewers asked you I'm pretty open kimono, so I that is. You know me well enough, mike. Like I think you asked good questions, so I think you did a good job. There's nothing for letting us off the hook.
Mike Maddock:And Martha, thank you so much for showing up and just being open. Kimono, it doesn't surprise me at all, but I suspect that people that stumble upon this podcast and listen to you speak so authentically and transparency about your journey in leadership and self-discovery are going to be as inspired by you as I am, and I'm really grateful for your time.
Martha McSally:Well, thank you, my hope would be that anybody who's listening now or years later that you wouldn't be inspired towards me, but you would be inspired within yourself that what I'm trying to demonstrate, part of my genius, part of my purpose on this planet, is to show the way for driven leaders who still have shit to unpack, who are extremely successful and driven but maybe still have some things that they need to heal. From that it's okay for you to do the inner work, to be authentic. You can still kick ass in life, but you will find more peace and more joy and you will take inspired action, not chasing ghosts, and I'm trying to be that light, to just say, hey, come this way. I just want to be that example for you.
John Tobin:Well, your example is shining through and your authenticity is just absolutely inspiring. Martha, thank you so much. It's been amazing, amazing hour with you. Everybody's going to really benefit from this. Thank you so much.
Martha McSally:You guys are a gift, thank you.
