Your Seat at the Table - Real Conversations on Leadership and Growth

Designing Products People Need but Don’t Want with Maria Ferrante Sheppis

• Mike Maddock & John Tobin

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What if your product lives in a world people need but don’t want? That single question reframes how we think about life insurance, sales, and innovation. With Maria Ferrante Sheppis, we unpack the hard truth: protection is a negative demand category—more like TSA than a car lot—and the playbook must honor that reality. Fear tactics backfire; trust, clarity, and frictionless design win.

For decision-makers dealing with skeptical markets, and for any leader who’s ever felt alone in tough calls, Maria offers a question-driven approach to transformation—less about loud disruption, more about peer-powered disruption built on empathy, experimentation, and data that earns belief.

Maria’s journey—from teen anxiety to CMO to innovation strategist—brings rare empathy and edge. She explains why power doesn’t increase with title, how the “currency buffet” beats salary alone for retaining talent, and why disciplined portfolios outperform heroic moonshots. Through the six lenses of innovation—human need, timing, risk, emotion, story, and scale—she helps leaders see what others miss.

We explore the blind spots most leaders avoid: longevity hitting escape velocity, essentials trending toward near-zero cost, and what happens to the very idea of life insurance if death recedes and work becomes optional. Instead of hand-waving at AI, we get practical about scenario bets and evidence-based learning—how to run toward the roar when uncertainty grows loud.

We dig into solutions that start with human problems, not industry defaults: cure futures that pool risk to fund access to breakthrough therapies; fertility-linked benefits built on a life insurance chassis for Gen Z; and a better narrative that frames agents as protectors, not fear merchants. Creativity thrives under constraints, and this episode shows how to use them—design journeys for reluctant buyers, test fast with small checks, and size your bets like a portfolio manager.

For anyone ready to challenge their comfort zone—and turn “not your problem” into an opportunity to lead—this conversation delivers clarity and courage in equal measure. Real leaders. Real stories. Real action.

If you lead in a sold-not-bought category, this is your field guide to selling virtue without manipulation and innovating without theater. Listen, share with your team, and tell us: what’s the one blind spot you’ll challenge this quarter? Subscribe for more conversations that turn hard problems into practical plays.

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Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

He he and I had a conversation that was about the seven deadly sins and the sales. So what happened was I compared it to the virtues because when I started trying to research and remember all about the different sins and what they were, I found the seven heavenly virtues a part of Wikipedia. And then I was looking at that list and I said, oh my gosh, this makes sense. The reason why he was trying to tell me that all sales are made somewhere in the realm of the seven deadly sins. That was his description. I understand what he's saying. And I do believe he's he's got a point. And the reason why sold not bought or life insurance is so difficult is because it much more aligns with the virtues than with the sins. So that's why it's so hard to sell. Perfect.

Mike Maddock:

Welcome to the Your Seat at the Table podcast with your host, Idea Monkey Mike Mattock, and ringleader John Tobin. We're two founders, a serial entrepreneur and a billion-dollar operator, to talk to leaders about how, when, and why they made their most pivotal decisions in life. Join us as we share wisdom, mistakes, and a few laughs learning from the brightest minds in business today. All right, well, lucky me. I get to spend hang out with my sister from another mister, Maria Ferrante Sheppest, and I get to do it solo. Uh John had a conflict at the last minute, so you poor souls, just to get to hear from me today. Welcome, Maria Ferrante Sheppis.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Thank you, Mike Madoc. It's a pleasure to be with you.

Mike Maddock:

So Maria, oh my gosh, I could spend the whole time talking about how awesome Maria is. Um Maria is a marketing genius, an insurance genius. She's a musical genius, and she's just a plain genius. Uh, you're about to find out why. I met Maria when she was working at Prudential, leading marketing, prudential insurance, and then got to work with her at Guardian when she was the CMO, chief marketing officer at Guardian. And then, lucky us, she left that industry, and we got to work together for many, many years. And so I spent a lot of time with Maria, watching her wild people with amazing ideas. Um, and Maria is also an author. She's a speaker, she's a musician. Maria and I wrote this book together, which pretty much describes my college dating career, flirting with the uninterested, innovating in a soul category. I'll let Maria explain that. And she just um published her next book, um Unfair Comparisons, which I read this weekend. And thank you, Maria, for saying nice things about uh me and lots of the people that I love in this book. Uh, if you've worked with Maria, go get it. It's really good, even if you haven't. It's wonderful. Again, welcome.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Thank you. Thank you.

Mike Maddock:

Okay, so Maria, tell us a little bit about your journey. How did you where did you grow up? What'd you do? How'd you start playing music? How'd you wind up in insurance? What what happened?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Oh my gosh. It's a kind of a long story. I uh I grew up on Long Island in a little town called Seaford, which most people don't know specifically unless they know the towns surrounding it, Massapo, which is famous for, you know, Joey Botafico, I guess, and uh maybe and like a a few other celebrities and uh and and some other towns around it. Levitown, which is where the Levit home was was created, and I lived in a in a s home that was of that style as well as I was growing up there. And I you asked me when did I start getting into music? I started, I guess when I was in third grade or so, when when kids start that. But there was a lot of music in my family. My mom's very talented piano player, guitarist, accordion player, and my my brothers are musicians as well. So I was kind of around it all the time. And that was always something that I thought I might do for a living, and then later said, nah, too hard, too hard, too much work involved, and even for those people who are super talented, it's hard to make a living at it. So I just kept it as a hobby and made decisions in high school to ma major in things that were more responsible, like computer science, which turned out to be something I didn't really like very much. And having had somewhat of a teenage meltdown in my second year of college, uh, my parents took me home and said, figure out your life, but in the meantime, get a job. So the only company that would hire me without a degree and without any experience was a life insurance company. And hold on one second. But let me jump.

Mike Maddock:

Can I jump in for a second?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Sure.

Mike Maddock:

Um, because you've told me the story before, but I think it'd be interesting. You're so successful, and you are a great musician. And and I think a lot of people right now are having kids that are having meltdowns. Um, you know, like the failure to launch, especially young men. And you here you are, and I know you to be brilliant. I'm not just saying that. And you went off to college and after a couple of years, uh, you didn't launch. What what happened and what what do you think the learning is from for parents today there?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Well, I was uh suffering from uh some really serious anxiety and it it affected my health in a very big way. And uh what I learned from that, and my my mom was and dad were both very smart to say to me you have to go get a job. And when when I came home from college and I was not doing well, the the that was the first thing they said, as opposed to stay in, we'll take care of you. Because getting a job gave me purpose and it allowed me to use my creativity at least to some degree, because if I didn't use it outwardly, I would have used it inwardly for not good things. And that was really smart for them to do that. It didn't feel right to me at the time. It felt like, why are you doing this to me? I'm under so much stress and anxiety right now. But they they knew what they were doing.

Mike Maddock:

Yeah, and so you um you had real problems to worry about for other people for a second. And it and and I think cream rises to the top. So you so keep going. I just wanted to hear that because I think there are a lot of parents out there who are faced with right now, I don't think I know because I talk to leaders all the time, like what is happening. Um and I think your parents' intuition about go out and start doing things uh was the right intuition. Um for some of the reasons.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

And I I never had kids of my own. I happen to be a grandparent now, which is awesome work if you can get it, right? To skip right over because you what you you marry a guy with adult children and you can get grandkids. And so it's it I'm learning about how it is to be a parent from being in this seat. But at the time, it it felt like there was a lot of instinct to try and protect and keep keep them inside. And then that instinct to say that's the wrong way to do it is is really what turned a cre you're a creative person, so you know if you don't have an outlet for your creativity, you turn it to things that are not necessarily good and in word is bad.

Mike Maddock:

You were you doing music then? Because I I have so many friends that were saved by a guitar as young people. It was kind of like their angst came out in beautiful music. Think of all the artists who wrote their best stuff when they were suffering. I mean, it's there has to be something there. Were you creating music during college?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Not creating music during that time. I was not. In fact, I did I just put it aside for my college years. In high school, I was doing that and then put it put it aside for my college years. And then after I came back home from being away at school and I started going back to school locally, the uh the band, the community band was formed from my high school, uh, my, you know, the high school community. And so the band director, who was pretty famous for what he did with the band in the Seaford uh area, he created this community band that I ended up joining again in my 20s and stayed into in there for a while. So that brought music back. And then I started getting I'm a flute player, so that's what I was doing there. And I started I started uh getting serious about it again. And then in my 30s and 40s, I started taking vocal lessons and things like that and started joining rock bands. So I switched from symphonic orchestra type work to Jeff Rotull. A bit of a transition.

Mike Maddock:

Famous for their flute solos, really.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Famous, right, right, on one foot.

Mike Maddock:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. All right. So you I I took you off track there, and that's what we do together. So you were um you're now you're working and uh playing music again. And what happened then?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

So what happened, yeah, it was a full-time I took a full-time job at this little insurance company in on Long Island called North Atlantic Life. I didn't even understand what life insurance was. I just kind of knew that it was important because it was a word you heard on TV and and sounded okay. I didn't know anything about it. And I got hired as an illustrations clerk, which sounds like something creative, like you'd be drawing pictures, but it's really not what it is. It's a computer using computers to generate sheets of numbers to show people what the future is going to look like with an insurance policy. And it was 1984 at the time, so the microchip was brand new. PCs were scarce if if anything, even in the business community. But I was only 18 at the time, so I had no fear of computers. So I dove right in, got it, it got it going on, and they would thought I was some kind of genius, but really I was just because I was a teenager, I was not afraid of technology. So that start launched opportunity, and then I said, I'm gonna go back to school, so I quit. And my boss said, Don't quit. He said, Don't you need a job for money, like on the side, like a part-time thing? And I said, Yeah. And so I stayed. And then when I graduated, I figured I'd quit then, but they never let me. It was like Hotel California. You could check out anytime you like, but you could never leave.

Mike Maddock:

Just quick digression, you know, the it's the highest compliment, Jeff Smart and Brad Smart. They wrote top grading. And they said the only question you ever ask when you check a reference is, um, would you hire her back? And the only answer for an A player is, are you kidding me? I've been begging her to come back since she left. That's how you know you have an A player. So, okay, so you you're you said, uh, oh, and one other thing, you said illustrator. Um, it reminds me of the story you wrote about in the book. Uh Christina Harbridge, who's took a job in collections and she thought she was getting into antiques, but it turned out she was in a business of collecting money that it's a good story. Please get the book and read it.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Um it's also in your book, too. That's where I learned it from.

Mike Maddock:

Yeah, well, we we share people. Uh Christina is one of the great thinkers today. Um, so lucky us. Okay, so then what happened?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

So then when I graduated, I got an offer for a full-time job, and I just stayed in the industry. And then I I worked there for for a total of six years and then moved on to another small insurance company. And by the time I was 28, I was uh a VP status, which was kind of unusual, but it was because I started so young. Then after after that, uh went to the Prudential. So I went from this little company called Banker's Life of New York to Prudential, which is a huge behemoth, as you know. And for the first six months, I was paralyzed. I thought, I don't even know where the work is. I couldn't find anyone that was actually doing the work.

Mike Maddock:

How did um so here's an odd question, but I think you all understand it. Uh, true or false, when you were first starting in insurance, it was primarily a male-dominated field. True or false.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Yeah, totally true.

Mike Maddock:

So how did growing up in on Long Island with two brothers help you navigate that?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

It helped me to not even really look at whether or not I was different because it was just I was there and it was kind of I just felt like one of the guys, and they treated me like that too. They bought me a rifle for my 15th birthday. I think they wanted a brother, uh, but they got me instead. But they they thought I was fine. Uh it just didn't really occur to me that I'm the I'm different in from a gender perspective. I just kind of hung out with with all of them.

Mike Maddock:

Yeah, I think my experience with you um matches that. I grew up with Ellen, uh, whose podcast partner John's uh wife. She had three brothers, and um I think she growing up with boys made her unafraid to just confront us with like, are you really saying that out loud right now? And I've seen you do that from stage and in a boardroom. And it's um I think it's stunningly refreshing just to like talk about the elephant in the room, even if it's uh um alpha male. Um, okay, so so did what's your big takeaway? So you you rose to the C-suite in um in insurance land, and then you decided to leave. Why? And how'd you make that decision?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Well, it's funny that you say rose to the C-suite, which is true. And what I learned that was not correct was that the higher you rise in an organization from a title perspective, I always thought that equated to the more power you would have to make change. And it actually doesn't. It's the opposite. Because the higher you go, the more risk there is when you do that. And when I would try to make those types of changes or assert those types of ideas, the friction became pretty difficult to deal with. And so that is why I made the the change, as you know, because I called you and said, help, uh, what do you think about this? And that I really got a taste of what that world was like to be on the outside of that, specifically that there was a discipline around innovation. I always, like many other people, thought innovation was just being creative and uh having being being able to take risks and getting lucky. And it's not that at all. There's a there is a discipline around it. Madoc Douglas was on the forefront of creating the the processes and the discipline around that. And I got that taste of it, and I I said, I I I want to do that. However, it was pretty terrifying to leave what I had known for at that time 25 plus years, and take that kind of a risk uh to to work for uh a company that is in consulting where the the work is up and down, ebbs and flows, as you know. So that was that was such a big big change. Yeah. But I got some coaching along the way about making that change. I had a a personal coach that I had hired at the time, and she did a whole assessment on me very objectively. And at first she thought I was crazy to make the change, but then after she tested my personality and I don't know, my blood and my hair, I don't know, she did a whole bunch of things. She said, You'd be crazy not to do this. You're perfectly cut out for it. And she gave me a whole safety net plan in case it didn't work out.

Mike Maddock:

And yeah, you were very open with me about that when you were in transition. Because I was like, Are you sure you want to do this? It seemed to me a little bit crazy. I had a sense of what you were making. And I'm like, I we can't we can't afford to pay you what you're making. And that's when you introduced me to this uh metaphor of the benefits buffet.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Yeah, the currency buffet.

Mike Maddock:

Talk about that because currency buffet. And you are uh you use metaphors wonderfully, um, which is why you're such a good speaker and writer. But talk about the currency buffet, because I think it's highly relevant to CEOs today, to leaders today, and especially to young people, or people that are leading young people. Currency buffet, what's that?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

It it is very much more relevant today than it was when I talked about it with you the first time. It's the idea that the way people get paid is in more than just money. So imagine a buffet full of things that you like and or don't like, for that matter, but things that might be on a currency buffet could be having flexible work hours, being able to work with people that you like, being able to do something that you love that gives you energy, being close to the office if there is one. Now there's now they there might not even be, not having a long commute or being able to take summers off. There are an infinite number of things that could be on that buffet, but they're all very individual. So when we are choosing what we're going to put on our plate from the buffet, if it's more than money, if the other things are just as tasty, then then the money doesn't matter as much. You know, you need enough to to support whatever lifestyle that you want. But at the time, and you know, still obviously I I never I didn't have kids to worry about. I had just become single again, and uh and and so it was just me.

Mike Maddock:

Yeah, it would I was uh I caught Susie Welsh on Michael Schnackanish's show this weekend. Um and Susie Welsh was famously Jack Welsh's, well, no, she was famously the uh the editor of the Harvard uh business review, and then she became Jack Welsh's wife, and she now teaches, I believe, at Columbia College, and she was talking about a survey or a study that they'd done about values, and it was she was on because of Thanksgiving, and family, being with family, isn't even in the top five. And uh, and he's just like, what? And if and if family is a big value for you, that creates a lot of dissidence. But it's also an insight because when you brought this currency buffet idea, we started looking at our folks and they were stressed because as you mentioned earlier, consulting can be like um, you know, feast or famine. And when it is feast, you are on the rogue, you're all over the place. You're not, and it's it's hard. And just think of all the consultants that get burnt to the ground as young people because they go, go, go, go, go. And so with that idea, I remember starting to like pay for landscaping and laundry services and things that actually mattered. It's like, give me more of my time back. So thank you for that gift. Um, okay. Yeah, so you flipped over to consulting land, and um so now you're on the other side, you're kind of like in the congregation looking at the altar. Um, again, a metaphor that you introduced me to. Um so you you ask killer questions. Um, what's what's a question every insurance executive should be asking themselves, but almost none of them are?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Well, I think that the first question they should be asking themselves is where are my blind spots? And then that leads to other questions. And blind spots are when I think about blind spots, I think about them in a very long distance futuristic type of way, not like, oh, am I acting like a jerk in a in in a meeting? Like that. I don't mean that. I mean about the business and about the longevity and the relevance of the business. And as you may have seen in in the the new book, the one of them which would scare either scare, I don't know, maybe not say scare, it would be more like something they'd laugh at. And blind spots tend to be something that people might just dismiss or laugh at. And one of them would be what what if people stopped dying or lived?

Mike Maddock:

Oh, I think you're gonna go with the AI. I think I'm gonna pull the I AI thread. That seems to be like the No, everyone else is doing that. Why would I be sure that you're not sure?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

But AI has it has something to AI has something to do with whether or not people will.

Mike Maddock:

So you're living forever. What are you insuring now? What business are you in now? No one's dying.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Right. What happens if people stop two things that are in there, two trends that and Elon Musk just talked about this like last week, about costless society or when work is he's calling it when work is becoming optional. But Jeremy Rifkin wrote it in his book called the Zero uh Zero Marginal Cost Society. And where where goods and services are things that are necessities cost much less or almost zero. So if people are living forever, hitting escape velocity where they'll you know have two years added to their life for every one year that they live, and then then nothing costs anything that they need, what do you need life insurance for?

Mike Maddock:

Yeah, it's interesting.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

You wouldn't. And so when I when I say those things, sometimes people will just laugh and say, well, that'll never happen. Or if it's gonna happen, it's not gonna happen while I'm alive. No, it's it may not. It may or may not. But if you're in the senior suite, C-suite position in a company, you have to be thinking about its long-distance future. That's part of your job. So it's not something you have to maybe stay up at night and labor over, but it's something that should be in that 5% of the revolutionary quadrant of the innovation portfolio that Mavdock Douglas is famous for having invented. That is where there's nothing. There's no question being asked there in that.

Mike Maddock:

Yeah, and one of the one of the tricks of uh innovation uh practitioners is to take things off the table that inhibit growth. So let's do that. I don't know if you heard, Maria. I'm pretty excited about this. I've been sort of private, but I did win Powerball last week. And so I'm now a, you know, I I don't have billions of dollars, but I do have hundreds of millions. So lunch is on me next time. And I'm looking to start, I'm looking to start uh a life insurance company. Um, and I'd like you to run it. So I'm gonna start a life insurance company next year. Um uh tell me what it would look like. You can do whatever you want. Money's no option. Um, tell me what you what it would look like in things that would never make a cut.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

I love this question. I also was believing you for a minute that you had won the Powerball, and I was really getting excited there. Um, but hey, if that happens-how I feel about it. If that happens, I can't imagine you're gonna start a life insurance company. Let's just say that. But that's also part of the joke, too, right?

Mike Maddock:

I said a health insurance company.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

I think that's a really good question for the industry to think about too. And it's almost like the word life insurance wouldn't even be in there in in this world. Because when you think about why it was why the industry was created when it was created, it was because death and premature death had these consequences, financial destitutional consequences that are far greater than they are today, even though they're terrible today, too. But back then uh entire families might starve to death if if somebody with the death of a breadwinner. And today the it it the new version of that would be very much designed around what we feel society's entitled to now. Right? What we felt that was entitled to in the 1700s and the 1800s was dignity, basically, just basic dignity, not having to live on the streets. Now what we're entitled to is so much more expansive. So I would see it being built around modern day problems, such as, and you this is also in the book, and you remember from 2016 when we were working with the pharma company, and we invented this idea called Cure Futures, which is the idea of creating a futures product that would allow people access to the very expensive drugs that are now going to cure diseases that weren't curable before. We see it already, and and our client, if you remember, was in the device business, you know, needles and things like that, mostly diabetes related, and they were scared to death of the cure for diabetes, which was coming. And it's here now. Now it's here. They were right. They said it was within six to seven years, and now we've got all the drugs, and they're so expensive. And people are getting access to them in all kinds of weird ways. But what happens when that cure for cancer comes for different types of cancer, for blindness, for dementia, for stroke, for all these diseases that we know will be cured. I mean, how much are they going to cost? So it reminds me of the thing. I would create it, I would create an insurance company that pulled our resources together to make that more affordable by people paying for them now.

Mike Maddock:

Yeah. And I since you and I have both been behind the curtain, I think the biggest challenge to many of these ideas is the house of cards of how people make their money now. And like if you're being paid, like you have these levers of economic levers that are like, well, how do I make money with that? And that's always the challenge. So do you think it's better like uh you're taking me in a different direction? Since you now own your own insurance company, um, if you if you owned a historic insurance company, would you buy or try to create from within that innovation? By you mean by another insurance company or by No, buy like an upstart in a uh someone, a young entrepreneur. Um I'm I'm leading you into the portfolio answer, I think. Oh, okay. Because there's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um like I want to do something that's completely remember we had an intern years ago that was talking about toilets that would tell you if you were sick. I just saw an article that in Japan you can slide your credit card pee in a urinal if you're a guy and it'll tell you what's wrong with you. Like you literally can do that now. So this is 10 years ago. Um so so you say you're in the boardroom and you're like someone says, hey, what about toilets that tell you whether you're sick or not? Um, would you go buy that or would you try to create it yourself if you own that insurance company?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Well, the the the portfolio answer is the right answer. Looking at all of what's available, because it's these days, if you can imagine it's possible, somebody is working on it. So why start from scratch? And then if you don't find somebody working on it, then start from scratch, if that's something that you think is got is got a there there. But it the key is really to test and learn, and if it's something that's way out there on the right side of the portfolio on the upper right, use as little money as you can to learn more. And then on the left side, if it's clear that the need is there, then be investing heavily in the technology that's going to make it happen. There's um there's a young woman that I just met here in Pittsburgh that has created a new type of life insurance company that's all geared around one problem. And that problem for Gen Z in particular, which I did not know was such a big concern, is infertility. And so she's layered onto a life insurance chassis, a an option that provides a payout if someone is diagnosed as having fertility issues and they need IVF or other treatments to have a child. She's looking for a company to take this on. It's called Insured by Lotus. And I I saw it on a on an Insure Tech contest, and I was so intrigued by this idea because it's finally somebody who has created something around a new need. But lo and behold, she's not from the industry. If she were, she would have never thought of something like that. Never. Yeah. And so that's important. It's an important thing to start with a problem, not with, oh, I have an idea for a type of company that I want to. I just want to disrupt the industry. Some people say that. I wouldn't I wouldn't come at it from that perspective. I'd come at it from the perspective of what is the new need and who has it.

Mike Maddock:

I in I fired an insurance broker uh at the age of 27 because of an in vitro issue. Um and it was a blind spot. Like I was upset that we hadn't talked about it and it wasn't included in this coverage. And I know it's a different idea, but the my the theory is the link for me was how did you not see this coming from me? This is your job is to be looking around corners for me, and I was very upset about it. Um, it's a longer story than that, but it brought that up for me. So thank you. Yeah, it's like you you and I both love to say you can't read the label when you're sitting inside the jar. And that's the expertise trap. You know what you know, you know what's worked, you know what people really want, you know what you've tried, you know what the boss wants, you know uh what you can afford, you know, you know, you know, you know. And the more you know, the harder it is to see possibility of what walks right in front of you. So people outside the jar see things that you're not. And that portfolio model, I I'm not, I don't want to give it away. Go buy the book. But it's essentially manage your innovation like you manage your own money. You put bets in different quadrants. You don't slide all the money into crazy. You put a little bit in crazy because that's how you anyway. I don't want to give it. I I don't want to stop talking, I'm gonna stop talking about it because I want people to go buy the book. And it's a really uh useful framework if innovation come passes your lips and you're a leader, you should know about it. Um, okay. So crazy question. Um if you could go back in your early career and w whisper one secret uh about customers that you didn't know, what would it be?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

That I didn't know back then?

Mike Maddock:

Yeah.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Uh I would say that there's I would whisper and say there's a reason why insur life insurance is sold, not bought. And don't try to change that part. Try to lean into that and understand it better and work with it, not against it.

Mike Maddock:

So your first book was titled Flirting with the Uninterested. Say what that that explain that a little bit more, because that's exactly the point of the title, right?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Well, it's interesting that you are talking about the title, I'm sure you remember this, that you titled the book. And that title is powerful because it really says it. I was inside the jar, so if I were titling it, it would have been the title that's on the other side, which is innovating in the sold, not bought category, which would be like, all right, you know, it's okay. But it it explains what it is, but flirting with the uninterested really says what it what it means. And it's intriguing, and that is what that gives you the metaphor for what the industry felt like it was doing and is doing. And all those years, from that time till now, what I learned is that the industry was trying to change it. Maybe I was too. Not maybe, I was, thinking, well, we could change that. Can't we make it into something people would want? And the the answer is not not just oh you can't, it's more like, oh, you shouldn't, because there's a reason why this is the way it is. And so now our innovation, once you have a constraint, can be even more creative with that, as you know. Uh creativity with constraints is it's much more powerful than with a completely blank sheet of paper. You know, look at uh Apollo 13, right? Roll a duct tape, you know, a couple of other things that you have to fit this into this square hole and get those people down from the ship alive. Pretty big task.

Mike Maddock:

Yeah, I think moon I think there's a whole conversation about why moonshot thinking is so powerful in terms of helping you really, really break things better and why it's so damn difficult to do if you're running a company. I mean, it is just it is so every it's almost like the things that make a company reliable and profitable are the exact and the people that make a company reliable and profitable are the same ingredients that kill it. It when it comes to time, it's time to change, it's time to pivot. And you know, history is full of once famous companies that just couldn't get out of their own way once the world, when the when the world changed right in front of them. And with the with the way change is happening now faster and faster, um it's becoming more evident, unfortunately, because uh, you know, I have friends in that position. Okay, wait. So the net your next book, um, Unfair Comparisons, which I really uh and I I read it this weekend because I thought it would be like, you know, bad to coming on here and not having read it recently. So talk what is it, why is it why is it unfair to compare a life insurance agent with a used car salesman? But it is fair to compare them to a TSA agent.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Okay.

Mike Maddock:

I thought that was pretty clever, actually.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Yeah, there's uh there's a there's well, fairness is uh in the eye of the beholder, right? You can you can compare anything to anything that you want to do. But why one is more fair than another is because of this idea of the negative demand category. This is the essence of sold, not bought, but we don't really examine it that way. We just say it and then say, well, it's just a fact. Well, why? And economics lessons would tell us that there's seven or eight different types of demand for products and services. And the types that people wake up and say, I want, is very different from the type that you need, but nobody is lining up to get it. So demand has to be cultivated. Doesn't mean there's no need. The demand has to be cultivated in negative demand categories. So think of things like gutter cleaning or uh or security at the airport. Like, like we know we need it, but we're not like rushing out to say, hey, I'm so excited about going through the metal detector today or getting my laptop taken from me. That is just something we know is necessary, but we we are kind of annoyed by. And life insurance falls into that category, but cars, even used cars, don't. Cars are things that people want. And they wake up saying, I need a new car, I want a new car car or a used car.

Mike Maddock:

You know, yeah, and I think that like the takeaway from me reading this book, other than I just love, by the way, gaffigin's one of my favorite uh comedians, and I love the way you gaff again through this book. You've got a why do they keep looking at me? You've got this inside voice that comes out at the end of these thoughts, just like Jim Gaffigan does.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

My special font, right?

Mike Maddock:

I know, yeah, by special font, and I know you. So I know that that actually is your inside voice coming out. And I think it's lovely the way you figured out how to uh, you know, get it into the book. Um I think the the takeaway for me was you you have to be making the right comparisons to actually have the insight to do something with them. So for example, with the TSA example, uh my first my nose wiggled when I first read it. I'm like, I don't get that. But then you made that point where you said, well, you know, there are signs, you've seen the signs like if you if you insult or be aggressive with the TSA agent, you will go to prison, which is punitive. If you don't buy life insurance, your family will suffer if you don't have it. It's punitive versus the signs that we are now seeing that I know of because you pointed out to me that uh that what percentage of TSA uh agents actually used to be in the military? Oh, these people are here to protect and defend me. That's a completely different mindset. And if you're thinking of the comparison the right way, there's an insight and learning for you there. Um, but how many, how many uh insurance agents are punitive versus, you know, I really care about you?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

So I think that the old school were taught to be punitive. They were taught that that's the way you get people to move on decisions is to to dangle the the negative in front of them and then back up the hearse, as they would say. Literally.

Mike Maddock:

Yeah. I had never heard that, but I I read it in your book and I thought, ooh, that's inside top, it really lands. Um, I I love the um I want to get on to the lightning round, just ask you some questions. Because we I have to be careful. I could talk to you all day if you'd let me. Um Heavenly Virtues versus Deadly Sins. I love that. I knew you would like put it in there. I I love that, and I love that you put it in the book just because you're like, oh, I've never heard that before. I hadn't heard it either. And flipping the script that way, um, I don't want to put you on the spot, but talk about it if you want. Otherwise, um, it's on page 160 of this book and is so worth read. Um, I should give credit to the person, Ariel Pfeffer, an entrepreneur and life coach from Uruguay, um, is the person who came up with that for you.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

So anyway, he came up with he he and I had a conversation that was about the seven deadly sins and sales. So what happened was I I compared it to the virtue because when I started trying to research and remember all about the different sins and what they were, I found the seven heavenly virtues at part of Wikipedia. And then I was looking at that list and I said, Oh my gosh, this makes sense. The reason why he was trying to tell me that all sales are made somewhere in the realm of the seven deadly sins. That was his discussion. I understand what he's saying, and I do believe he's he's got a point. And the reason why sold not bought or life insurance is so difficult is because it much more aligns with the virtues than with the sins. So that's why it's so hard to sell.

Mike Maddock:

Perfect. Forgive me. So if you're wondering, as I was, the virtues are chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, kindness, patience, and humility. Um very insightful. Um okay. So let's do some rapid fire. You ready for some uh rapid fire questions? Don't think too hard. Just blurt, blurt. It's way more fun when you blurt. Um what's more dangerous, an uninterested customer or an overconfident executive?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

I would say an overconfident executive. An uninterested customer is just kind of normal. Right? That is like that's like the baseline. That's where we're starting from. The overconfident executive is gonna do that in person no good.

Mike Maddock:

Which you trust more, customer data or data or customer stories?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Stories.

Mike Maddock:

Data better Okay, better flirting metaphor. Ghosting, bread crumbing, or love bombing.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Say that again, please.

Mike Maddock:

You're just like ass.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

I'm not sure I grasp that one. Could you say it again?

Mike Maddock:

Because I want to answer better better flirting metaphor. Flirting with the uninterested. Ghosting, bread cup crumbing, or love bombing?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Ghosting.

Mike Maddock:

Alright. Good. Um what's more valuable? Curiosity or certainty?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Curiosity, for sure.

Mike Maddock:

Amen, sister. Favorite band.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Ah, I do that for that.

Mike Maddock:

So hard.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

So hard, but lately I think it's the zombies.

Mike Maddock:

Really? Yeah. Interesting.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

I've seen them so many times, I love them.

Mike Maddock:

They're still at it and they look like zombies now, but they always kind of Jim's favorite band is The Beatles still.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Uh no, it's the Beach Boys.

Mike Maddock:

The Beach Boys, I shouldn't have known that.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

With Beatles are right there behind it.

Mike Maddock:

Your personal superhero power in one sentence.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

I believe that my superhero power is connecting dots. And sometimes they should be connected and sometimes they should not, as you know.

Mike Maddock:

By the way, um, Maria has a new album out. You started by talking about music. You've gotten way back into music. You're incredibly talented. I've seen you speak and play, and I think it's um one thing I know about you is you're always creating something brilliant. And so everyone Google Maria Ferante Chavez Music and see if you can find her album. Last question. Um, if life insurance, if the life insurance industry were a person, what advice would you give them on their first date?

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Is it on a first date with me? Or just anybody?

Mike Maddock:

I mean, you can take this anywhere you want. If you want to date the life insurance industry, that's you know, there's no judgment.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

I would say be gentle on yourself. Meaning that don't take everything so personally that this is this is a journey, and uh don't expect a very quick reply from the world. This is something that everyone needs to understand and respect, and they won't necessarily understand it and respect it immediately.

Mike Maddock:

Okay, so I want to point something out. Um, one of my pet peeves is people who teach about entrepreneurship at college who've never run a business. It makes me batch it crazy. And the reason is because they have no empathy. They just like they get up there and they do case study, a case study. They've never had to make payroll, they've never had to tell their best friend they no longer had a job for them. And that lack of empathy cuts me because they just don't understand how difficult it is in the trenches. I want to point out to anybody who's still listening, particularly the people in the life insurance industry, Maria took that question as if she was part of you. She took it as like it's hard, it's not easy. Um, so if you're really tired of consultants or speakers for telling you how to do things with no empathy, um uh introducing Maria Fronte Sheppis, who has it oozing out of her pores. Maria, thank you so much for spending time with me. Best part of my week for sure.

Maria Ferrante Sheppis:

Mine too, Mike. Thank you.

Mike Maddock:

Real really fun.

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John Tobin

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Mike Maddock

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