The Twin Thieves of Leadership with Steve Jones

A butterfly struggles in its cocoon, and a coach resists the urge to cut it open. That image becomes our compass in The Twin Thieves of Leadership as Coach Steve Jones—record-setting high school football coach, educator, and executive coach—unpacks how resilience is built, how culture actually wins, and why fear steals more potential than failure ever could.

For decision-makers dealing with pressure to perform—and for any leader who’s ever felt alone in tough calls—Steve offers a question-driven path to stronger teams: Are we building comfort or capacity? Are we rescuing too quickly? Are we rewarding effort or just outcomes? His approach turns culture into a form of peer-powered disruption, where teammates—not titles—protect the ship from ego, entitlement, and complacency.

We start with the moments that shape a leader: a hungry new kid, a teacher who noticed, and a quiet act of kindness that changed a life. From there, Steve maps the practices that turned a public school program into a 70-game dynasty and now power executive teams: design culture to drive consistent winning behaviors, make love synonymous with accountability, and build connection through stories, service, and shared struggle. The best cultures aren’t top down—they’re owned horizontally.

Then we name the invisible opponents: fear of failure and fear of judgment. Steve has seen them stall high schoolers and CEOs alike. His tools are simple and actionable: create psychological safety for well-earned risk, challenge catastrophic thinking (“Is that 100% true?”), act as your own best coach, and adopt an internal scoreboard that rewards growth and consistency. Sometimes leadership means learning to run toward the roar instead of protecting comfort.

Sustained success brings new pressure—Steve calls it a privilege. He explains how to keep noise out of the hull, why trust is a trainable skill built on authenticity and consistency, and why “clear is kind” when fit fails. For anyone ready to challenge their comfort zone as a parent, coach, or executive, this episode is a reminder that productive struggle builds strength—and that sometimes what feels like help is actually harm.

Real leaders. Real stories. Real action.
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Transcript

The Cocoon Cutter Lesson

Steve Jones 0:00

We get so many moments to strengthen us throughout our lives. And I think a lot of times as parents, we want to be cocoon cutters. We want to make it easier. We want to open that and we want to cut the cocoon to, and what we end up doing is we don't allow our kids to strengthen themselves to be able to fly one day. And I think that simple story is huge. And I think about it a lot. I got an 11-year-old at home. I remember when he was first going to preschool, and you know, we need winter jackets up here in Wisconsin. And he's in, he's in our mud room and he's struggling trying to zip up his jacket. And what do I want to do? I just want to go and zip it up for him because he's crying, he's frustrated. But in the back of my head, I'm like, don't be a cocoon cutter. Otherwise, he's going to be that seventh grader that can't zip up his jacket.

Mike Maddock 0:44

Welcome to the Your Seat at the Table podcast with your hosts, Idea Monkey Mike Matok, and ringleader John Tobin. We're two founders, a serial entrepreneur and a billion-dollar operator who talk to leaders about how, when, and why they made their most pivotal decisions in life. Join us as we share wisdom, mistakes, and a few laughs learning from the brightest minds in business today. Okay, so lucky us. Today we have Coach Steve Jones as a guest. I was talking to a good friend a few weeks ago about uh folks that he'd hired to help motivate his senior leaders to be better senior leaders. And he goes, Oh, yeah, you've met Steve, right? And I said, Who's that? And he goes, Oh my God, you got to meet Coach Jones. So uh as a hint of what we're gonna talk about, the current uh record for wins in the United States in high school is 64 wins in a row right now. It's a school called uh Marion Local in Ohio. Steve, you managed to get to 70 when you were a high school coach, which is unbelievable up in Wisconsin. Uh you've written a book. Uh uh the book is what's the book called again, Steve? I haven't I I want to dig. It's called Go ahead.

Steve Jones 2:04

The The Twin Thieves, How Great Leaders Build Great Teams. Yep. And the Twin Thieves are the fear of failure and the fear of judgment.

Mike Maddock 2:10

And you sent me one. It hasn't arrived yet. I can't wait to read it. I've heard good things about it. So thank you for that. Um and you're currently a partner in a in a company that helps executives lead better, and you're doing a fair amount of speaking all over the world. So I I've really look forward to as a dad and as a business leader having this conversation. So welcome to your seat at the table.

Steve Jones 2:34

Well, thanks for having me. Really excited about the conversation today.

Mike Maddock 2:37

Okay. So um tell us your story. I mean, how did you wind up? Where did you grow up? Uh, how'd you wind up coaching? How'd you wind up being such a great coach?

Steve Jones 2:47

Yeah. Uh so I grew up in in Wisconsin. Uh, I was the youngest of five, and uh I grew up uh with a dad who really wasn't around. So I had a lot of uh great role models step into my life, um, a fifth grade teacher that made a huge impact, coaches that made a huge impact. And um I went on to play some college football, coached a little college football for a little bit, but really in my heart, I wanted to try to make a positive impact, the way that those individuals made a positive impact on me. So uh I was in education for 20 years. Um I taught first grade, I taught fourth grade, I taught fifth grade, I taught high school. I joke that the only thing I didn't touch was middle school because I'm not a psychopath, right? And uh the the last, you know, about you know, I think it was ended up being 13 years of my career. I had this unique opportunity to teach and develop three separate leadership courses at our high school. And they all kind of organically grew. So that was really my life for 13, 14 years. I got to dive deep into leadership, read lots of books and listen to podcasts and watch TED Talks. But then most importantly, learn alongside and from our young leaders and learn about what they were excited about and what got them going, what they were interested in, but also what held them back and what they were fearful of. And then I had this really unique opportunity to take um these ideas and concepts and principles and tools and frameworks and see if they actually worked in a highly competitive, unpredictable situation like the football field. Because I just really think that leadership's a lot easier to read about or talk about than it is to do. So I got to see if it actually worked or if it just sounded good. And if it didn't work, we went and back and revamped it. So it was that kind of constant cycle of learning, teaching. And as you guys know, when you teach and you mentor and you coach, you learn a lot through that process, implementing, reflecting, and refining. So I ended up doing that, and um, and we experienced some success. So we, and I use that intentionally, it was not a me thing, it was a we thing. Uh, amazing coaching staff and players and families and community. Uh, we experienced you know some success. So you missed it, you know, mentioned the 70-game win streak. Over the course of 11 years, we won 129 and lost nine. Um and there's some businesses that started hearing about what we were doing as far as leadership development, cultural growth, mindset training. And they asked me to start coming in and speaking to their businesses. I really love that. Was kind of doing it when I could in the summer, after school, things like that. And then uh COVID hit, and um, I always said I didn't have enough time to write a book. Uh that excuse got taken away from me. Uh, my now business partner, co-author Lucas Jade and I uh wrote uh The Twin Thieves over the course of a year and um self-published it on Amazon, ended up becoming an Amazon bestseller, and uh it hit a tipping point then when you know getting contacted quite a bit about wanting to work with businesses and and business leaders. So made a decision to take a leap and leave education and now been doing this for about three and a half years.

John Tobin 5:34

Okay. So I just Mike, if you don't mind like just going back to kind of the the original curriculum and leadership program that you were teaching, uh, did you create the material or was it created and then you enhanced it, or maybe just talk a little bit about what inspired you even to do it? Was it were you just pushed into it? How did that how did that um beginning begin at the at the school?

Steve Jones 6:01

Yeah, I appreciate you asking that, John. So I was a health teacher at the high school, and then I was getting my um my master's degree in educational leadership. You know, I went through a great program where you kind of had a choice you could write kind of a thesis or you could do a project. And obviously I took the project in and I chose uh leadership and character education to be implemented into our health curriculum because I've really felt like at the root, decisions came from the type of person you are, the type of leader you are, and started to embed that. And my principal approached me and said, Hey, what do you think about just taking on a leadership class? He goes, Next year I can give you two and then we'll see what happens. Well, two turned into four, turned into eight, turned into how many, and then they wanted leadership two and leadership three. So to ask your specifically the question, it was a little bit of the research that I did in my master's degree, and then it was a lot of iterating, learning from our kids. And as you guys know, and the work that you guys do, there were so many amazing resources out there. And trying to figure out what made sense the most, what was simple enough, not easy, but simple enough to comprehend, um, and really kind of continuing to iterate to figure out what resonated the most and what made the most sense. So was able to develop my you know, myself along with some help uh throughout those years of leadership one all the way up to leadership three.

Role Models And A Life-Changing Lunch

Mike Maddock 7:15

So this is gonna demonstrate how differently John and I think about things. I I I you brushed over something that seemed fundamental to the whole story. Uh my dad wasn't around much. And yet you became this incredible leader. And I I I just never met a person who's uh a man who's running an organization who who hasn't some kind of complexity with their father that is fundamental to what drove them to be who they are today. Can you talk? I mean, this is a deeply personal question, but what what happened there? I mean, were you did you get into this uh line of work because you were trying to fill those gaps? Or like who filled that gap for you with your dad not being around much? That blows my mind that you're you're you wind up leading hundreds and hundreds of young men after coming from a place where you're you know your dad wasn't around much. Can you talk about that?

Steve Jones 8:16

Yeah, absolutely. So I was I was an oops baby. Um, you know, I I was uh I was kind of a big oops, so there was a huge age gap. And I had uh, you know, two older brothers that were were huge role models and and father figures to me growing up. So very lucky to have them in my life. But you know, as they grew older and off at college, you know, I I I really gravitated, as I said, to teachers and coaches. And uh there was a really pivotal time. I'm a believer in moments. You know, Steve Jobs talked about you can never connect the dots looking forward, you only connect the dots looking back. And and there was a moment where um, you know, my mom finally mustered up enough courage to leave and get a divorce. My dad was an alcoholic. Um, and so I had started a new school and new neighborhood and all this other stuff. And um I landed this teacher who was the head hockey coach at our high school. His name was Mr. Stoskoff. Like, isn't that that's a killer name, right? And at the time, hockey. Yeah. I mean, you at the time, I mean, he was young, he was single, like he had a boat, he had a dog, like he was the hockey coach. In my mind, he was like it. And I remember that like the first week of school, I forgot my lunch. I didn't want to say anything because my mom just got a new job and I didn't want him to think I was irresponsible. So I'm sitting there and you know, I'm surrounded by kids, they're not talking to me because I'm still the new kid, and you know, they're all eating except for me, because I forgot my lunch. And I remember looking down at those fake wooden lunch tables he had in elementary school, thinking my life could not get any worse. Of all the things that are going on in my personal life, on top of it, I don't have any friends, I don't have anything to eat. And I look up and then through those big gym doors in the back, because we had the our gymnasium also doubles our cafeteria, um, entered Mr. Stoskoff. You know, it was one of those moments, you know? And he's got a he's got a bag of Hardy's the fast food restaurant and a big soda from Hardy's, and he makes eye contact with me and he weaves his way and he places the Hardy's and the soda in front of me and he looks down and he you know he slaps him on my back, and all he says is just enjoy your lunch. And then he just walked out. Wow. And like he along with other people, like literally changed the trajectory of my life um in that moment. And and I thought it was really interesting because I don't think he really had a lot of recollection of that moment. He knows now, but like you know, it wasn't a big deal to him, but it was a huge deal to me. And I I said to myself, like, I want to I want to make a difference like that guy.

Mike Maddock 10:29

Yeah. And I can feel you getting emotional about it now, you know, like this this many years later.

Steve Jones 10:35

Yeah. I mean, it was it it was huge to, you know, because of all the things I needed in my life, I I needed an adult male to cared about me. And he showed up. And like, that's why I went into elementary education to start. And that's one of the reasons I went into coaching. Now, again, you know, it wasn't just that moment, but you know, he he was a huge part of my journey, along with a lot of other, you know, male and female teachers and things like that. But really, you know, I needed somebody in my life and somebody arrived. And and then when I wanted to make a decision, I wanted I wanted to do, you know, coaching college football or high school and teaching, like I went back to I want to have an opportunity to make a difference like that guy does.

Mike Maddock 11:17

When did you get a chance to tell them that story? Because it's so rarely do you get to get go back to people and say, you know, you really changed my life, and here's how. Do you remember when you told them that?

Steve Jones 11:27

Um, I think when I was like, when I was still student teaching, I got to student teach in the same school he was at. Like I think, I think I like massage my way into that, Mike. Like I, you know, just letting them know like the impact he had. And then, you know, I I don't know if he ever really heard that story until I was doing a presentation in a school district, and he they surprised me by bringing him in. Oh, wow. And he had his wife and his son. His son's now a teacher, and he's sitting in the auditorium in the school, and I'm up on stage, like trying to get through the story. And uh, you know, obviously he came up to me afterwards, and and I'm like, hey, like, that was my recollection of that story. Am I right on this? And he's like, Yeah, you know, like now that you bring it up, I remember, you know, I'm gonna go.

Defining Culture And Discipline

Mike Maddock 12:12

I was asked to speak at a at a at our uh school district in in Chicago maybe 10 years ago, and um it was such an honor at the whole school district, and I pointed out a teacher in the audience and said, Can you stand up for a second? And I told her a story I'd heard from my son about how she had changed his life when he was in fifth grade. I go, I just want to give you that gift because you completely changed his life by saying one thing to him, and I know about it. Um what a what a wonderful gift. So, okay, so you're um now you're you're let's move to high school. So now you're coaching. I'm just really curious about like you learned a lot working with uh young men that I'm sure you apply every day in leadership. We'll talk about parenting here eventually, but is it like here's a question. Um, which breaks first, discipline or humility? Like, were you were you more about was it more for you about culture or was it about uh hard work? Like what if you had to uh boil down what the key to your success was in one word, what would it be?

Steve Jones 13:19

Can I use the word and can I can I can I use culture and discipline? Uh and here's what culture of discipline. Yeah. So, you know, why is why is culture? So I if I had to pick one, it would be culture. But I think there's so many layers to that. So why is culture important? I think words matter. So to me, the purpose of culture is to create an environment that drives consistent winning behaviors. A lot of people, when they hear that word culture, they think about being able to wear jeans or having donuts on Friday, which are all great things, but the whole purpose of culture is to create this environment that drives the behaviors that help you win, right? And you can do that a lot of different ways. You know, we tried to create a loving culture. So one of our values was family, and family was forget about me. I love you. And love was really a foundational part of our program, but love also meant that we worked really hard and we're disciplined because we didn't want to let each other down. We'd use this quote all the time that a true soldier doesn't fight because they hate what's in front of them. A true soldier fights because they love what's beside them. And our kids fought so hard because they loved each other, they worked so hard because they didn't want to let each other down. So I know you're asking me for one, but it's I think there's a lot of layers to that. Um, and then I think the best cultures are not top down, they're bottom up. And one of our biggest things we did is we systematically develop leaders who own the culture from the bottom up. It wasn't driven by me, it was driven by the players.

Mike Maddock 14:48

But you couldn't recruit your players. I mean, that's so this you had to deal with what you that's the difference. Like I I hear a lot of coaches say, I recruit a certain type of player that's gonna do really well in our culture. So, how do you motivate young kids that you have no control of who you're dealing with? Like, do you was there did you have a trick? Like, like uh our coach, uh uh uh Glombard West, I heard this story years ago where some kid went into Subway and was bullying another kid, but the coach found out about it. So the whole team ran he ran them to the ground saying, Hey, we're gonna we're gonna be a team that takes care of each other. That's not how we behave. So someone on this team says misbehave, so we're all gonna run. Did you have any hacks like that or to bring everybody along?

Building Connection Through Stories, Service, Struggle

Steve Jones 15:40

Yeah, I I think the secret is there is no secret. I I really do. I think it's about it's about you know time. One way to spell love is T-I-M-E. And and you know, I think there's three way ways to really build connection. I think in business and sports, it doesn't matter. One is through our stories, right? Our stories connect us as human beings. One is through service, right? So we tried to s serve together. We did a camp free of charge for for kids with special needs every single year. Like I'd get emotional in those camps watching our kids interact. And it was some of the highlights of their career was working that camp. And it also brought our kids together. And then through struggle. And I think whether it's families, whether it's you know organizations, whether it's teams and sports, when you struggle together, right, you you create a bond, like on no other. It goes back to the Navy SEALs and everything else. So really, like if I was gonna put a structure or framework, how we build built that connected culture were through all three of those S's.

John Tobin 16:39

Yeah, I mean Steve, without without maybe you don't have to disclose names or anything, but uh could you share a couple stories about like uh a few kids that you know either were rough around the edges and by the time that you know they they graduated that you you saw tremendous growth or they were just great an individual leader, or just maybe just give us some some stories about different different kids that like still stick with you that like I know that person benefited from this and maybe dive into that a little bit. Yeah.

Water The Bamboo Mantra

Steve Jones 17:17

There's a lot, you know, John, and and if I can anchor, if you're all right, if I can anchor in a quit story, uh that's a foundation that was a foundation. When I first got the job, I introduced this mantra called Water It. And it comes from the water the bamboo story. And I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's a true story about the giant bamboo. The giant bamboo farmer will go down the field, he'll bury that that seed underneath the soil, and he'll water that seed morning and night, morning and night. And 30 days will pass, 60 days will pass, 90 days will pass, whole year will pass, and you won't see anything. In the second year, same thing, morning and night, two whole years, still nothing. Third year, people are coming up to him saying, What are you doing? Why are you wasting your time? There's nothing there, move on, do something else. But not the bamboo farmer. Patient, he's persistent, he's consistent, he continues to water the bamboo. Third, third year, still nothing. But in the fourth year, the giant bamboo will explode through the soil and go 90 feet in 60 days. And that that story was our mantra. Water it every single day, water the bamboo. And I think we live in a very instant gratification, microwavable society where we want results right away. But I don't think success is always microwavable. I know relationships certainly are. So when you ask that question, John, about those stories, I am immediately go to the water the bamboo kids. Right? I I there was a there was a quarterback for in our program. He was a junior playing JV football, which is not usually a good sign. Yeah. Uh and he ended up becoming a senior, and he could barely at the beginning of like summer, like complete a five-yard pass. That kid did so much to improve. Like he would ask for the practice scripts after practice so he could study it. He'd spent extra time before and after practice. He did all these little things. He ended up becoming the number one quarterback in the entire state of Wisconsin his senior year. Now, in a lot of other sports, like where you cut and all this other stuff, like he never would have got the chance. But that kid watered the bamboo and he not only changed as a player, but John, you should have saw him change as a person, the way he carried himself, the way he led, his confidence. And I think that journey changed his life way after football. Like he's a different person because he saw that hey, if I continue to water the bamboo, like it it'll it I can't control the results, but I can control what I do in the process. There's other individuals that you know changed as people. As you said, we we had some people in our program that that grew up in some rough homes. And we tried to be those father figures to those individuals. And I really think if they weren't a part of you know our program, I don't know what path they would have taken. But a lot of times, John, you get that feedback long after they graduate.

John Tobin 19:59

Yeah.

Steve Jones 19:59

You get the text message, you get the invite to the wedding, you get the, you know, this changed. And and and coach, I didn't always understand it at the time, but now I understand. You know, so those are the really cool moments for me now that they're married and have kids and they understand it. I love it. And they're telling the k their own kids the water the bamboo story now.

Mike Maddock 20:22

How many coaches do you have in your lineage so far that you know of? How many of your kids are coaching yet? Because they're good.

Steve Jones 20:30

That's a great question. I'd have to go back and count, but yeah, we yeah, there's definitely some some guys that are out coaching in college football and you know, their their own kids now all over. And um, you know, it's neat to see. And I I think it's always neat to see it, and and we need more educators today, more and more than ever, in my opinion. So it's really cool to see some of these kids that um you know that are going into education want to give back. I was just at a at a benefit. We had a uh a former player, his junior year, he ended up getting uh diagnosed with cancer. He was a all first team all conference center as a junior, and he ended up getting diagnosed with cancer, and um it ended up coming back. And uh I got to go to uh a local benefit forum and talk to him, and you know, he's gonna become a teacher. He's not giving up on that. Um those those types of things are pretty cool.

The Twin Thieves: Fear And Judgment

Mike Maddock 21:18

My brother-in-law is a wrestling coach. Uh he was a college uh high school and college wrestling coach for 25 years. His name is Ralph McCausland. And he is in the Hall of Fame, and I've gone to see uh a whole bunch of awards that he's gotten that he didn't want. But what it what sits sticks with me are the kids that he coached that are now men who are coaches, and they're they're students who are now coaches. Like there are literally dozens and dozens of high school and college coaches that were coached by him. And they're all impacting lives and the stories and I just look at Ralph and go, My God, you're Legacy is just like it's just unbelievable the impact he's been able to have as a coach. It gives me chills thinking about it. Was it hard for you to leave coaching?

Steve Jones 22:10

It was probably the hardest decision in my life. Not the hardest thing I've ever been through, but making a decision, it was really hard because I wasn't unhappy. Like I had a great setup. I got to teach leadership, I got to impact kids, I got to coach football. Um, so I wasn't like running from something. But one thing I always talk to our kids about is if you know you want to take a positive risk in your life, you can't allow the twin thieves, a fear of failure, fear of judgment, to hold you back. And um, I was drawn to this, and I was kind of at this point of okay, well, you know, you say these things, it's easy to say. Now you get confronted with a really tough decision. You know, are you gonna live it out? So that was one thing I really thought about, but it was tough because I I do miss the kids, I miss those relationships. Um, but I was in it for 20 years and I thought, you know, it might be an opportunity to go impact, you know, some different people.

Mike Maddock 22:57

Yeah, t talk about the book a little bit. So the twin thieves, you just you you you just gave it to us, and John and I are both parents, and and I have I see young people like I uh stuck. They're just stuck because that it feels like they they don't know what they should be doing. They're afraid that if they do something wrong, they're not gonna get ahead. Can you look talk about the insights of the book and how they may apply to coaching, parenting, leadership?

John Tobin 23:24

We the other thing, Mike, is that we've both done a lot of like leadership development stuff, either ourselves or our teams. And so yeah, I'm really curious um kind of the concepts and the principles behind the book. And and if also if did they did they come from the curriculum that you had, or did they germinate maybe just through your experiences? So yeah, sorry to cut you off, but I would love to hear about the book.

Steve Jones 23:51

Yeah. So in our work now, and and even when I was teaching leadership, um, we don't want to just focus on the fruit, we want to get to the root. And that's what we discovered was one of the biggest, if not the biggest, inhibitor inhibitors for young leaders, but also adults. I just did a three-hour workshop yesterday and we did an anonymous survey of what holds you back from being the best version you can be. And time and time again, it came back fear of failure, fear of judgment. It might look a little bit different, fear of letting other people down, imposter syndrome. You guys know it all. But I really think unless you unlock what is really holding people back, it's you can give them all the tools in the world, but they're just not going to use them because they're fearful of you know coming up short or what other people think or holding other people accountable, whatever it is. So the origin where originated was um I used to shape my classroom like a circle. I got rid of all the desks. We just had chairs, we had a circle, and there's a lot of research around circles and seeing each other, and it was great. And and we every day we had an opening circle question where every kid had the opportunity as we went around the circle to give their input, share an experience, create a connection, discussion. And um, one prompt every year was or every every class was what is the biggest thing that holds you back from being the best version of yourself, being the best leader you can be? And I had them all write it down on a piece of paper anonymously, they all had the same color pen, and then they crumpled it up and threw it in the middle of the room. And then I mixed them up and I had them go grab one, right? And then they all took one back and they read it to themselves, and then they read it out loud, and we went around the circle. And 90 plus percent, every single class came back to one or two of those thieves, or both. So it either was fear of failure or fear of judgment. Time and time. It was like, oh my gosh, time and time. So then we started talking about it and started, you know, trying to give them tools on how to rise above it and perspective around it and experiences around it. And then I started getting to know my current business partner who is doing, you know, unbelievable executive training and executive coaching throughout the country. He works with, uh he's been coaching the coach of the LA Dodgers, the manager of the LA Dodgers, Dave Roberts. He's been coaching him for seven, eight years and all these times. And then we started talking, I told him that story. He's like, you know what? Those are the two things that hold my clients back the most, too. And, you know, everything in psychology says if you can name it, you can tame it. And all we're trying to do is just put a name to it and make it visible. It's impossible to beat an invisible opponent, right? And it really resonates with people. So we call them twins because a lot of times people say they're scared of failure, but the more questions you ask, you realize maybe they're not even really scared of the failure itself. They're more worried about what happens afterwards, the judgment that happens afterwards. So fear of failure, fear of judgment can get mixed up kind of like twins, and they can rob us. So I I'd like to get your input. When you think about the fear of failure and the fear of judgment, what could those two things potentially rob us of? What what pops in your head? Well, taking chances. Taking chances and trying to go for something that you know perhaps you haven't done before.

John Tobin 27:00

Um Yeah.

Mike Maddock 27:01

And I think proto like rapid prototyping, just like the like experimenting, just well, that didn't work, that didn't work, that didn't work, that didn't work, that hurt, that hurt, that hurt. Whoa, that felt pretty good. Like that's that's how life is supposed to, I think, supposed to teach you what you're good at. But you but if you're stuck in not moving forward, you don't get any of that feedback. You just you know Yeah.

Tools To Rise Above Fear

Steve Jones 27:25

So, you know, we run into a company that has innovation as one of their core values, yet they're driven by fear. Like innovate, but don't screw up, right? It just doesn't work. So, you know, I could go on and on about how it's robbing people of joy, you know, relationships, um, you know, success in their life. Like, I I think they're the biggest thieves in America. I I really do. I think they hold people back the most. And then when you look at kids specifically, you know, as simple as raising their hand in class. Well, when you raise your hand in class, what happens? Well, everybody looks at you, and then you could say something wrong, and then everybody's gonna laugh at you. And then with society today, with social media, when we were all growing up, like you made a mistake, you know, people forgot about it, but now it might be recorded and it might be out there forever and it might be spread to thousands instead of the 30 people in the classroom. You know, so there's a whole new level of it. And I just think like when you literally get to the root of what's holding a lot of people back, it is those two things. Now, I'm not saying you can't rise above it, but a lot of people think too that they go away once you hit a certain level. You know, once I hit this amount of revenue, or once I become a CEO, or once I graduate from high school, or once I become the captain of the team. But if you don't rise above it, right, they don't go away, they can amplify. So I it got go back to your original question, John. It was rooted in our classroom through conversations and discussions and anonymous input. And then when I started having conversations, it wasn't just kids, it was high-end leaders too.

John Tobin 28:53

Does it how so what are the techniques that you kind of made me talk about to to rise above it or to get over it? And and and is it just about creating the space for people to fail, creating the space for people to um get over their fears, or they maybe talk a little bit about almost the remedy in a way?

Steve Jones 29:17

Yeah. Um, well, one, you talked about like, you know, creating an environment. So I do think connected teams are powerful teams. I know you guys have probably done a lot, a lot of work around psychological safety and all that stuff. And when people hear psychological safety, they might think about rainbows and butterflies. But really, the big thing about psychological safety is you can take well-earned risks without the fear of getting kicked out of the tribe. You can have difficult conversations, you can speak your mind, right? So I think creating an environment, right, whether that is what's in my classroom, on the football field, in the boardroom, whatever it is, how do we create this environment where people can take those well-earned risks that they they can iterate, as Mike was talking about, that they can raise their hand, that they can challenge, right? Because that will help. Because the number one thing is it is rooted in our brains. Like our brains, I like simple. And we got a lot of probably smart people listening to this, but at its root, our job of our brain is to simply keep us alive. That's priority number one. And it goes back to primitive times, like cavemen, cavemen. If if you got judged or you failed real bad, what what might happen in caveman times? We got kicked out of the tribe. If you got kicked out of the tribe, what happened? Well, you died. So blending in, being average, was actually a survival mechanism. Now we don't have to worry about today getting eaten by a saber-toothed tiger, but it's still rooted in us of like, hey, don't get kicked out of the tribe. But if you can create a tribe that's going to embrace you no matter what, you're more likely to rise above it. And then on an individual basis, not to spend too much time on this, but I think we all have an inner critic, right? And we call it our little person voice, right? That's our insecure, ego-driven voice. And I don't think enough people simply question their thoughts. We can't control our thoughts. Some people think we can. We can control how we respond to them. And one way we can respond to our thoughts is to question them. So a lot of people, when they talk to themselves, because we talk to ourselves the most of the day, it's not very positive. And and the research that we have found, a lot of it is around like, you're not good enough, you're not smart enough, you're not old enough, you're not young enough, you're not experienced enough. Like it it tells you things, right? And then if I can give you one tool, I don't think it's a remedy, but it's a tool. Just simply ask yourself, is that 100% true? Because most times it's not. Like if I fail, everybody's gonna laugh at me and they're not gonna stop talking about me. And like, is that 100% true? No. We think it might be, but it's not. And then ask yourself, like, how do you show up in the absence of those thoughts? And then my last uh question would be in that process is what would your best coach say to you? Because a lot of times we're our worst critics, so to turn into your best coach in those times where the twin thieves get really, really loud, how how would your best coach talk to you in that moment? Yeah, I love that. It is.

Parenting Without Cutting Cocoons

Mike Maddock 32:10

I I I've been told to uh think about the person that loves you more than anyone else in the world, what would they be saying to you right now? It's a similar kind of you know, absolutely um Do you talk uh do you have any thoughts about like this is kind of bridging the gap between coaching and parenting, I guess. Um and we before we got on and started recording, we were talking about how everybody does the best they can and then hopes for the best when it comes to parenting. Um when does when does protection become enabling? Like when does like protecting a kid from getting hurt become enabling like them not experimenting or trying? Do you have any thoughts on that? Like tough love kind of coaching?

Steve Jones 32:56

Yeah, can I uh get rooted in another quick story? Yeah, yeah. And uh I'd I'd actually I would use this story in every parent meeting before the season starts. Okay? Let's do it. That there's an old man, he's sitting in his garden, he's retired, he's having a cup of coffee on a beautiful summer morning, and he looks down and he sees this uh cocoon on the ground, and it's it's moving and it's struggling, and he's watching it, and he starts feeling bad for what's inside, right? So he goes into the house, he he grabs a tiny pair of scissors, he comes back out, he gets on one knee, and as slowly and gently as he possibly can, he slowly cuts open the cocoon, freeing this butterfly. He sits back down with his cup of coffee, he's feeling really good about himself, and as he continues to observe that butterfly throughout the morning, it's struggling, and it actually ends up dying. Well, why? Because the old man, he took away the productive struggle that it took the butterfly to build the strength in its wings of breaking out of the cocoon so that it could fly. We get so many moments to strengthen us throughout our lives. And I think a lot of times as parents, we want to be cocoon cutters. We wanna we wanna make it easier, we want to open that and we want to cut the cocoon to, and what we end up doing is we don't allow our kids to strengthen themselves to be able to fly one day. And I think that simple story is huge. And I think about it a lot. I got an 11-year-old at home. I I remember when he was first going to preschool, and you know, we need winter jackets up here in Wisconsin, and he's in he's in our mud room and he's struggling trying to zip up his jacket. And what do I want to do? I just want to go and zip it up for him because he's crying, he's frustrated. But in the back of my head, I'm like, don't be a cocoon cutter. Otherwise, he's gonna be that seventh grader that can't zip up his jacket, right? So I know it's a really simple example, but I that was one of my biggest challenges that I told our parents is don't be a cocoon cutter. So if your kid is struggling, have him come talk to his position coach, have him come talk to us. Communication's a great skill. But if you're the one picking up the phone, you're removing that uncomfortable conversation and now you're robbing him of that experience. And it was cool because and then we had a bunch of players that would say to their own parents, hey, mom, stop being a cocoon cutter. Dad, you're being a cocoon cutter. Let me handle it.

John Tobin 35:21

I love the power. How do you find yourself uh like an occupational hazard preaching to your wife about this stuff?

Mike Maddock 35:31

If you say cocoon one more time, that's gonna be a problem, Mister.

John Tobin 35:35

Exactly. Well, we we gotta remind you the cocoon. Okay, he's gonna get hit by a car.

Steve Jones 35:42

Obviously, there's different there's there's different levels of the thing. We gotta, I'll be honest, we gotta remind ourselves because I think as parents, we none of us want to see our kids struggle. We don't. It's inherent in us, and we love our kids and we want to jump in. So we gotta hold each other account. My wife and I gotta hold each other accountable into it, you know, and and this is good. Like this struggle is good. And I, you know, I I don't want to speak for you guys, but a reason I get this opportunity to be on this call is because I've had struggle. I am who I am because of of my situation growing up, you know? Yeah. Not only my dad, but you know, I remember like we did not do well financially for a long time with my mom. And we were struggling, like, there was a lot of things that we struggled with that gave me this perspective and the strength I have today. So um I I do think it's important to really step back and try to allow our kids to strengthen those wings.

Mike Maddock 36:38

Do you look at that as a gift or a burden now? I I this is like the the I so much of this to me is about perspective. You know, uh I my first wife passed away, and I'm so grateful that I had a wonderful marriage with her. I I really am. I'm grateful. Uh, but I could be really pissed and sad all the time about it. And I've just chosen uh to be like, wow, who gets to have that? Um what about you and your dad? I mean, was there a moment where you've were you where you went from being uh annoyed or angry to like, okay, hold on a second? Or were you just genetically always like, well, whatever, I'll do the best I can. Can you how do you flip that switch? If you any coaching on that, coach?

Forgiveness, Perspective, And Freedom

Steve Jones 37:25

Well, I think it's a great question. And I'm sorry, you know, to hear about you know your your wife. Um, and and I do think that our perspective drives our performance and how we view things is how we do things. There are a lot of things we can control in our life, but our perspective is something we can control. So how you just frame that, I think was really powerful, Mike, of the blessing that you had with her, you know, and and what a gift that was. Because it'd be easy to shift that perspective to, you know, the other side of that of now that she's gone and the anger, but you have the gratitude because you choose to look at it that way. As far as my journey with my dad, um, yeah, I was angry for a long time for the majority of my teens and early 20s. Um I'll I'll I'll share the story. I don't I don't know how often I've ever shared this, never on a podcast, that's for sure, or out in public, but uh my dad ended up having a severe stroke where he was on life support. And um my brother's sister was were uh in the waiting room and we all took individual turns to go in before we unplugged the machine, so to speak. And um for some reason I took my time with him to forgive him. And I don't know if he could hear me. Still to this day, don't know if he could hear me. But what I realized was I was not forgiving him for him, I was forgiving him for me. And maybe some people in here are like, yeah, you know, no crap, dummy. But I I held on to that for a long time. And I I did not forgive him because I didn't want him off the hook. Um, and when I had that conversation, I left that day, I was like, I feel more free than I felt in a long time. You know, so I don't know, I'll butcher it, but there's an old proverb of like, you know, by holding on to burning coal, you only burn yourself, right? And I think like I held on to that for a long time, and in the end, it was only hurting me. So I think forgiveness is sometimes uh underrated in this world. And it doesn't mean that you gotta forgive and let people back in your life and continue the cycle of abuse, but you can forgive and and still have boundaries. And if I look back, I wish I would have done that a lot earlier because I think I would have been a freer person in my teens and my twenties.

Mike Maddock 39:51

It's that's such a thank you for sharing that. I I um that was a real gift. And you gave your g yourself a gift that day. I think that um my biggest lesson going through all that was that you I felt like a really bad dad and friend and business leader while all that was going on with Ruth. And I finally just had to think, you know, I'm doing the best I can. You know, this is as good as I can do right now. And I I the lesson for me was to be graceful with others, you have to be graceful with yourself. Like life is really messy. So thank you for sharing that story. That that's um that's I I think that's probably fundamental to why you're so good with uh kids and young men and as a leader because you have that well-earned empathy, you know? Like that's what a journey. Um so you you win 70, and I'm gonna lighten it up for a second because I was crying a second ago. Um so you won six 68 in a row, 69 in a row. Stop. Any moment where you're just like, okay, we gotta lose one of these games, there's too much to carry. Was that that must have been really hard to be winning all the time? Because, you know, my my team, Iowa State University, just lost. It got Kansas on Saturday. And part of me is like, well, they need to lose because it it creates humility because the tournament's coming and you can't slack it. You got to work harder. Now, I know you've worked with Iowa State University. So this, what you're about to say, is rooted in that experience. What do you tell people that are so used to winning? How do you keep motivating them? I mean, because you learn lessons when you lose, and you learn lesson lessons when you win. That's a long question. Take any part of it you want.

Winning Streaks, Pressure, And The Ship

Steve Jones 41:37

Yeah. Um it was a great question. And um, I, you know, I think it was a you know, that 70-game win streak was a blessing and a curse. Like it was there was a lot of really good memories, there's no doubt. But uh, it was miserable at times, if I'm being honest with you, uh, for a lot of different reasons. One, you know, when when you experience a lot of success, sometimes you don't win good enough for people. It's really interesting, right? Uh, I remember our defensive coordinator telling me that, you know, he was one of the hardest workers I've ever met. He was at, you know, Saturday morning, 5 a.m. at the gas station, filling up his pump, and there was a community member next to him and said, Hey, yeah, you coach for the for the football team, right? He's like, Yeah. He's like, Oh, you guys didn't look that good last night. And we we won like 42 to 14. Yeah, it was like 42-14. And like the 14 points we gave up was late in the game, and we, you know, had some subs in. And like, you know, so there is this external noise that can really get to you. So we really tried to focus on the internal. And that was probably one of the best things we did is had our we had our own internal scoreboard. We only had we had our internal focus. And there was a quote that we use all the time that it's not the water around a ship that will sink it, it's when water gets inside. And there's a lot of people that focus on the outside waters. You know, in business, it's market conditions, tariffs, you know, competition. And none of those things typically sink your ship. It's when you allow other things inside. So I would always have our leaders at the beginning of the year say, come up with a list of what are the things that we're not going to allow inside of our ship. And some of those things were like entitlement, complacency, ego, negativity. And I'd start off every meeting with that list, I'll say, How's the ship? And then I would tell our leaders, hey, a lot of those things happen when I'm not around. So do you have the courage to hold each other accountable when those things start creeping into our ship? So we found like our own internal scoreboard. We found ways to grow, uh, even through the winds. And and the last thing I'll share with you that I think we really did a good job of during that time is we focused on what we just talked about as far as perspective. And I would always tell our kids pressure's a privilege. You know, where would you rather be 65 and oh or oh and 65? Right. And, you know, and really trying to make sure that we understood the difference between pressure and stress, you know, defining words matter, embracing the pressure, using stress relief mechanism to make sure that we're not. Getting burnt out. Um, so there's a lot of things we did, but I think the biggest thing we can do is focus on things we can control inside of our ship.

John Tobin 44:08

I love the I love the analogy, honestly. And especially right now, because like there are a lot of outside things that that are happening with the market, and you know, AI honestly is totally just disrupting our environment. And I think we're making the most of it, but there what there is noise. There is a lot of noise, and if if you let it, it could just uh it just encapsulates you, and like that's all you focus on then is the noise instead of looking internally and what you can do. So I love that. That's a really good one.

Mike Maddock 44:40

And I think that it's healthy. Something just as a callback, what I see is um everybody needs a a place where they can talk about you know what they're seeing, what they're feeling, and how they're doing. You know, the coaching staff, the kids, executives, having a room where you can be like, hey man, I don't know. I'm not sure. I don't know the answer. What are we gonna do? Like, come on, like that the the the best CEOs I know are able to say, look, I'm doing the best I can here. This is what I think we should do. What do you think? What am I missing? What's the blind spot? Because I'm scared too. Like, I'm scared too. Um, when you can say that the steam that is let go, and and I think, well, I I you you said it earlier, imposterism duck syndrome doesn't stop when you get the bigger job, the bigger paycheck, the bigger title. It's uh and a lot of it you it can amplify, it can become bigger and bigger, and blowing off that steam, whoever you are, I think is really critical.

John Tobin 45:42

Yeah, Steve, that do you get into that at all? Like in terms of thinking about like vulnerability and um you know helping create that trust within a team. Um, you know, if you're if you're fearful, in a way, like you can't be vulnerable, you know, and and then that does erode trust, I think, in a lot, a lot of cases. I don't, I don't is there is there a connection there, do you think?

unknown 46:08

Yeah.

Steve Jones 46:09

Yeah, so you bring up that word trust. I think that's huge. And we actually um we have a system, we have a 360 sixty assessment around the skills of trust. I think there's some people that think, well, they're just naturally a trust builder, or they're really good at building trust, and and we just feel like they're skills. And I'll just quickly go through. We shape it like a pyramid, and and you know, the foundation, the first level of that pyramid is authentic vulnerability. Yeah, so showing up and having the courage to be your authentic self, as Mike just described, of I don't need to have all the answers, right? I can I can be my authentic self. And then the vulnerability aspect, we define in two ways. One, sharing with the purpose of connecting, you know, not for pity, but for connection, right? And then the other way we define vulnerability is having the courage to go toe-to-toe with the twin thieves. Because for you to step into the fear of failure, right? The fear of judgment, that is one of the that that's vulnerability at its highest peak. So do we have the authentic vulnerability? Because courage is contagious. And as leaders, if we can step in, we give permission for other people to do the same. Then the next level is there's two buckets to it. There's care, because people won't care how much you know until they know how much you care. So how are you showing people you care by listening, by being present, by asking questions, by having empathy? And then the other bucket of that is credibility, right? And that is helping people become successful. You you got to be able to be really good at what you do, right? And help people move the needle. Yeah. And then the highest, the the tip of it is just around consistency, that people can know what how you're showing up, that you're going to do it consistently, because the best of the best do consistently, what other people do occasionally, right? So can you be that consistent person? But you you put those four buckets and we have skills in each bucket together. What it ends up doing is it helps systematically build trust with the people that you have the privilege to lead, work with, coach, and it helps them then do it with other people as well.

unknown 48:11

Yeah.

Trust As A Trainable Skill

Mike Maddock 48:11

So coaching is one thing. Have you ever walked into a room and or met with an executive team and come back and eventually said, This person has to go? Like, is there is there a type of person where you're just like, you know, we don't have time for this. This person has to go. What does that person look like if if you've met them?

Steve Jones 48:33

Oh yeah, I think there's a lot of layers to what that person looks like. You know, I think it depends on, you know, the role, the position, their character, you know, um, you know, the values of that organization. But there's definitely people in every organization, and you know, unfortunately in our football program that just continually did not live out the values and the standards and the expectations of their role. And I think it's Brene Brown that says, you know, clear is kind, unclear is unkind. And caring and loving people means that you're direct with them. And it also gives them an opportunity to go and be in a place where maybe they fit a little bit better. I'm not going to pretend like it's easy. You know, it was probably it was the toughest thing as a coach. It's the toughest thing like for me is to to tell people that they're not a right fit. Uh don't get me wrong, but that is part of the process of making sure that we're doing what's best for the team, but also the best for that individual. Maybe what's best for that individual is they're not there. And the last thing I will say when we when I think about those conversations, one question I would ask myself all the time is what's more important? My level of comfort or the success of our team? Yeah. And when I avoided those conversations, it was because my level of comfort was more important than the success of our team. Yeah. And when I when I leaned into it, I I had the perspective of this might be uncomfortable, but this is best for our team.

unknown 50:03

Yeah.

John Tobin 50:04

Mike, Mike is gonna jump into uh some rapid fire in a little bit. Right right now, like currently, since uh looks like 2022, um you you you've started your own um partnership to do like I I assume so some some of its speaking, some of it's this leadership development. Can you just talk a little bit about that from like the business standpoint? And you might talked about that being a you know tough decision before for you to leave coaching, but maybe just give uh us in the audience a little view of what you're doing today.

Steve Jones 50:42

Yeah, I appreciate you you and uh asking. So um, you know, our organization is Jaden Jones. So that's Lucas Jaden, my business partner, Jones, my last name. And and really, you know, big three that we all we offer is is coaching, uh, one-on-one, executive coaching, and business coaching. Um, you know, and so we have multiple partners that we do deep work with over the course of you know, two, three, four years. Um, so the coaching aspect of it, um, and then you know, the live events part is is big for us too. So we do keynotes and workshops, and then we also try to create community. So, you know, we also have um, you know, some mastermind groups and things like that. So it in all those different facets, we focus in on three things. It's leadership development, it's cultural growth, and it's mindset. And we call it three-legged stool. And if if you're an organization and you have, you know, a systematic way of developing your leaders, you have a culture that's by design and not by default, and you have strong mental skill principles that you can lean into, you're gonna be successful. Because I think leadership and culture is really easy when things are going well. But when adversity hits, you need some common language and principles you can lean into. So that's why we call it the kind of the three-legged stool. So appreciate you asking, John. Yeah, love it.

Mike Maddock 51:56

Yeah, thanks for the question, John, because now I have a referral for Steve. You know, my I'm a part-time pimp, Steve, connecting people and possibilities, how I roll. So I got I have a connection.

John Tobin 52:07

Mike is amazing at it. Yeah.

Mike Maddock 52:08

Yeah. Well, thank you, John. All right, so rapid fire questions, you ready, Steve? Watching the clock, Navy Bratt. You got another meeting. Let's make this happen. You ready?

Steve Jones 52:15

Uh I'll do my best.

Mike Maddock 52:17

Talent or toughness?

When Fit Fails: Clear Is Kind

Steve Jones 52:19

Toughness. Hardest kid to coach. Uh know it all instead of a learn it all. Ah. Knower versus learner. Hardest parent to deal with. Um the former high school all conference player that thinks they know it all.

Mike Maddock 52:43

Who wants to bore you with again with the story of the championship game? Um, one word that defines leadership.

Steve Jones 52:53

Love.

Mike Maddock 52:54

That's awesome. Um most overrated trait in leaders.

Steve Jones 53:00

Overrated. Um that's a great question. I know it's supposed to be rapid fire. Uh technical skills. Great. Underrated trait.

Mike Maddock 53:16

Most underrated.

Steve Jones 53:18

That is that what you asked me before. I thought technical skills.

Mike Maddock 53:20

No, I just my follow-up question. You said overrated. Now I want to know what's the most underrated trait.

Steve Jones 53:25

The most underrated is the ability to listen.

Mike Maddock 53:29

I'm sorry. All right. Um, one thing every dad should stop doing. Cutting the cocoon. Yeah. Ah, good, good callback. Uh one thing every CEO should start doing.

Steve Jones 53:48

Um setting up systematic ways to know the person behind the uniform.

Mike Maddock 53:54

Love that. Discipline or inspiration? Discipline. Really? So that I think you're pretty good at inspiration, I'm just saying. Um, so I believe you. Thank you. Okay, and what would your 17-year-old angry pissed off at his dad think of today's you?

Steve Jones 54:20

Yeah.

Mike Maddock 54:22

I think you're right. Steve, thank you so much. What a great uh time. Thank you for uh I want to personally thank you for making me cry and for um t you know sharing some things that were deeply personal. I I'm I'm grateful. And I I think that I'm speaking for thousands of young men who have been touched by you who are also grateful for your rare form of mojo. Appreciate you.

John Tobin 54:46

Ton tons of great nuggets in there, Steve. Really uh thank you. Really appreciate uh meeting you and um being on the podcast. Thank you.

Steve Jones 54:54

Feelings mutual. This is a great conversation. Appreciate what you guys are doing, and look forward to uh continuing to build a relationship with you guys.