Adaptability in an Uncertain World with Cameron Atlas

Change is speeding up, and the leaders who thrive aren’t the ones pretending to be certain—they’re the ones staying curious, staying human, and staying grounded in what they value when the plan breaks.

For decision-makers dealing with constant uncertainty—and for any leader who’s ever felt alone in tough calls when the future won’t sit still—we’re joined by Cameron Atlas, leadership speaker, musician, and National Geographic Explorer, to explore what adaptability really looks like in practice. His approach is deeply question-driven: if it all ended today, what haven’t I done yet that I wish I had?

Cameron traces the experiences that shaped this mindset—from growing up on a remote farm in Outback Australia to discovering how early technology expanded his world. That blend of isolation and possibility became the foundation for a leadership style rooted in curiosity, resilience, and continuous improvement—one that enables peer-powered disruption by encouraging teams to think, act, and adapt together rather than wait for perfect direction.

From there, we get practical. We talk about why CEOs feel stuck when the world changes faster than forecasting models, and how clarity often comes not from better predictions, but from stronger alignment to values, mission, and identity. Cameron shares a gripping Colombia river story that becomes a simple resilience playbook you can use immediately: POGO (Perspective, Ownership, Gratitude, Opportunity). It’s a reminder that sometimes the path forward is found when you choose to run toward the roar instead of resisting uncertainty.

We also take on the AI reality head-on: agentic AI, guardrails, critical thinking, and what it means to remain human when tools can do more and more of the work. We explore the growing risks around mental health and loneliness, and why replacing real, friction-filled relationships with AI companionship may solve for convenience while creating deeper leadership blind spots. In a world of accelerating capability, knowing what’s not your problem—and what still deeply is—becomes a defining leadership skill.

For anyone ready to challenge their comfort zone and lead with clarity in an AI-driven world, this episode offers a grounded path forward. Real leaders. Real stories. Real action.

If you care about leadership, adaptability, resilience, curiosity, and better decision-making, hit subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave a review. What’s one guardrail you think every team should set before adopting more AI?

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Transcript

Why Curiosity Becomes A Value

Cameron Atlas 0:00

Okay, what's your number one value and why? The the most common one is curiosity. And and it makes sense because boy is is it crazy how much change is happening now. And and if we think that now is a crazy amount of change, just wait another three, five, ten years. We can't Days. I don't think we yeah, days, right? I don't think we can quite comprehend just how just how rapid this change is going to be.

Meet Cameron Atlas

Outback Roots And Early Tech

Mike Maddock 0:24

Welcome to the Your Seat at the Table podcast with your hosts, Idea Monkey Mike Matdock and Ringleader John Tobin. We're two founders, a serial entrepreneur and a billion-dollar operator, who talk to leaders about how, when, and why they made their most pivotal decisions in life. Join us as we share wisdom, mistakes, and a few laughs learning from the brightest minds in business today. Okay, welcome to the You're Seat at the Table podcast, Lucky Us. Today we have my friend Cameron Atlas. Uh, Cameron is an expert on adaptability, resilience, and continuous improvement. He is a um an excellent speaker on leadership. He's an accomplished musician, and he has a wonderful podcast called The Edge of Possible. He's also coming off of 13 live podcasts at South by Southwest this week. So he's exhausted. Uh Cameron, thanks for being with us. Um let's start with how you wound up being a national geographic explorer and an expert on adaptability. What is your story?

A Leap Into Exploration

Cameron Atlas 1:36

Yeah, well, thanks for having me, Mark. I really appreciate it. Yeah, it's it's it's been a wild ride. Uh I grew up on a farm in Outback Australia in the middle of nowhere. So this is all a like just a really weird and unexpected career for me. Um, to give you an idea of how remote we were out there, it was a nine-hour drive away from the city. Um, we had a pet kangaroo and I had 11 people in my graduating class. Right. So so there was, you know, there were just certain things out there that that we didn't have access to, like that kids got in the big city. And one of those things in in particular, you know, certain subjects that weren't available, for example. And uh in my final year of school, luckily, we had this this piece of technology called open access. And it enabled me to have vocal training with a a coach that was hundreds of miles away. And back then it was a big deal because you know, today we've got Zoom, we've got Teams, we've got other platforms, this what we're doing this podcast on as well. Um, different things that enable us to um connect with one another. But back then, dial-up was number one. And and so I like to think of this as a super advanced piece of technology of the time. And it was just, it was a landline on speakerphone, man. Like that's all we had. So that's that's how I had singing lessons in my final year of final year of school, which is is wild to think about. But it definitely got me thinking about just how far we've come from a technological standpoint. Like the innovation and and advancement has been quite remarkable when you think about it over the past, you know, 20, 25 years. And and it has me in insanely interested, excited, optimistic, uh, concerned, all of the above about what does it really take to adapt? What does it really take to become the greatest version of ourselves as we continue to speed up the rate of change? And so it's a little about the the past story. And as far as National Geographic goes, yeah, I mean, I'd been uh coaching and speaking for a bunch of years, and and after uh a relationship of mine ended, uh, the year after I ended up selling everything that I owned, went on this crazy journey around the world, living in places that had had pianos in them around the world, and ended up filming some stuff while I was there of nature and um some stuff went pretty well online and I ended up getting a grant with Nash Geographic to to go back down to Colombia and in South America to um to film there about a last free-flowing river there. Um had no intention of at this, you know, the start of all of this of becoming that, but it was a pretty incredible experience. And um, you know, it's just continued to have me really contemplate what's possible and and continue challenging that. And the final piece, I guess, is uh after one of the trips to Colombia that I that I had and I I filmed there, I was on a grand piano in Argentina um in this apartment there, writing the soundtrack for that, for that short film. And um that that first week that I was there, there was this beautiful question that I asked myself that I strongly recommend that those listening continue to ask yourself over and over again. And it was if this all ended today, what what haven't I done yet that I wish I had? And and for me, you know, I'd had this music part and had some pretty good stuff happen there, and and on the speaking and coaching side as well. And I I'd never found a way to bring the two together. And on that day, the answer to that question for me was, I want to give a talk with a grand piano on stage. You know, it was this elusive dream that I'd had. And I got booked for one two years earlier in the in Australia, and just a couple of days before the conference, the whole the whole thing got cancelled. The whole conference got cancelled. And here's this little boy from Outback Australia. Like, I was I was pretty crushed at that time. I thought, man, maybe it's better just to keep these two things separate and they're they're gonna be better just on their own. But there was just something about that day in in Argentina. I go, dude, if you really, you really want this, like go and go and make it happen. And so I just reached out to anyone who'd listen. And eventually, someone said, after plenty of rejection, someone said, Yeah, we got two events coming up on the same day. There's 700 people at each of them. We think this could be a perfect experience to open up one of the conferences, what one of the events, close out the second one, and did it, made it happen. It was up in Canada, and I walked off the stage thinking, all right, if that's possible, I wonder what else is. And it's been a wild ride since then.

Mike Maddock 5:55

I remember um seeing, I think, is it Ben Xander, the Art of Possibility? He was the conductor of the Boston Philharmonic, and he uh gave a a a a group of entrepreneurs a a speech using music and conducting us. And I remember walking away from that performance and feeling so inspired. And I I I I think a lot about what opens up people's um mind to possibility. You said you grew up nine hours away from a city. I can't even imagine. Like I've uh Austr, I've never been to Australia. It's on my bucket list, and I I I read about all the dangerous things in Australia. You know, you've got sharks and crocodiles and more poisonous snakes. I wonder, is it do you feel more inspired? Or uh I uh do you hear do you hear the universe or God speaking to you more when you're playing music or more the when you're in nature?

Cameron Atlas 6:59

Oh that's a good question. You know, I had uh literally last night I sat down at the piano and I had a you're the first person that I that I've shared this with, aside from my wife Brittany, who was there in this moment, because it was this it was a really deeply spiritual moment that I had in it was last night and I played. It was only I only played for about five minutes, but I was just in it. And I I said to her after I had a moment, I just sat there for a while and there was nothing else that was around me at that time. I was just immersed in it, and I was so present, and I was so like, what is the note that's coming next? And what's the next one that's coming, and what's the next one that's coming, and being able to hear that tune that I was aiming to play on the piano. And so from a presence standpoint, there is something incredibly beautiful about being there. And I'd say when it comes to creating ideas from a music standpoint, yeah, being at an instrument, it definitely helps. But nature for me, especially in the rainforests and and you know, places with big trees and expansive landscapes and things like that, um, yeah, there's something really, really beautiful about that. And and that might have been coming from from growing up on the on the farm where, you know, like my family has, my brother's taken that over. They've got like more than 20,000 acres over there and spread across three farms. And, you know, there's there's a beautiful, while we're in the middle of nowhere, we're along the ne fairly close to the coast. Uh it takes about 20, 25 minutes to get down to this beautiful beach that no one is there most of the time. Like you get the entire beach to yourself and it's completely untouched. And so yeah, may maybe there's something that came from, you know, growing up that that leads me to feel uh more at home in an expansive place. So I don't know. But um, yeah, some really beautiful ideas tend to come when I'm when I'm out in nature.

SXSW Themes Leaders Kept Repeating

Mike Maddock 8:56

Yeah, I I've had experiences uh walking or hiking in rainforests, or uh I once I took a trip uh about eight years ago, uh a solo trip into um a park called Quedeco. It's in Ontario, and it you have to uh paddle your way in. And I remember getting to the rain, it was oct in October, so it was the edge of winter, and I part I checked in with a park ranger and she said, Do you like being alone? And I said, I I'm not sure. She goes, Well, you have two million acres to yourself, so I hope you do. And the the just the privilege of being out in the middle of nowhere, hearing wolves howl, um, seeing stars that I didn't even know existed, and being completely alone with nature was like such a kick in the curiosity gut. It just it's I don't know how anyone who can immerse themselves in nature uh doesn't wind up being curious about things. And I I have a feeling that the further away we get from nature, the less curious we get. And I know you think a lot about curiosity. Um, I came home uh last night. My wife just joined a band. She grew up in bands her whole life, and I walked in and she was playing the keyboard and singing. And I just sat by the door, she didn't know I was home, and listened to her. And I thought, wow, how cool is that that she could just dive into that and you know, wash herself over with music. And so I I'm uh I'm a little envious that I don't I have nature, but I uh music isn't uh a large part of my life. Okay. So so you you I I have to ask you, I said I mentioned that you just came off of 13 live interviews at South by Southwest. We both have friends speaking there. Um if you had to come up with three words that that uh that uh summarize uh what you heard from the leaders, what what would they be? Like what what were the themes that came forward while you were talking to these people? Because we live in such a um a time of change. What what came what rose to the top for you?

Cameron Atlas 11:07

The f I mean the first one that comes to my mind straight away, one of the questions that we do in our rapid fire for the edge of possible is there's these three key questions that s that surround values, beliefs, and habits. And and one of those around values is okay, what's your number one value and why? Um the the most common one is what we've just been talking about, curiosity. And and it makes sense because boy is is it crazy how much change is happening now. And if we think that now is a crazy amount of change, just wait another three, five, ten years. We can't Days. I don't think we can quite comprehend just how just how rapid this change is going to be. Um and so curiosity makes sense because it opens us up, it it enables us to explore possibilities that that uh that we might not have otherwise been there. And and just coming back for a moment with with what you were sharing from uh you know, getting out in nature and and curiosity and and these pieces, it's uh first, I I I I know just how incredible the stars at night can be, you know, growing up on where we grew up. Still, of all the places I've been in the world, nowhere comes close to the amount of stars that you get to see out there. And um, there's something beautiful about um feeling so small and yet so connected to that at the same time. And then when your eyes adjust a little bit and you start to see the stars that are behind the stars, and that just that blows your mind. And that that again, that curious nature is um is is beautiful. And the other thing that I just wanted to touch on, uh, which is to do with this curios piece as well, with your wife, uh, you mentioning about the music piece. I think we have different ways in which we can harness the power of curiosity. And that goes through some of the key skill sets that we build, right? Your wife has music as an example. Some people have business. Uh, for me, like piano has been number one for many, many years. But during the pandemic, I I picked up the guitar and put in 2,000 hours over the first 500 days learning the guitar. It was like four hours a day, every day for 500 days average. Um, and I had some amazing insight that came from that. That wow, there's when I wrote the first song on the guitar, I thought, man, there's just been a whole realm of creative expression, creativity that has been always there, but I just haven't had the skill set to tap into it.

Mike Maddock 13:41

And the more that we can develop a door. Yeah.

Cameron Atlas 13:43

Yeah. You have to be able to create these doors to be able to tap into the curiosity. Um, otherwise it just ends up being, like, we were super curious, and that's about it. So um, yeah, so I'd say curiosity is was the number one value that came through. Um the the other is that um there's differing views on, you know, we had futurists come through, those that are from an AI standpoint, right down into human um development and and personal development. And uh I'd say the second one is that there are there are some incredibly smart people working on how to make this work. You know, and and that it it might seem like there's like so much division and um challenges and just whether it's within your specific industry or or globally, that we're much more alike than we are different. That's what I'm saying over and over again.

CEO Fear And Finding Clarity

Mike Maddock 14:42

Yeah, that I think that um well you said you went to Colombia. One of the things that you know, I'm uh who was it uh Mark Twain who said he never met a well-traveled racist. I I think that the more you travel, the more you realize how much we have in common and how people just want to live good lives and take care of their families and do good things and have a good legacy. And uh one of the sad things about technology is that the the smallest voices become the largest, you know, the the people that are um right on the fringes are the ones we hear the most from. And we lose we uh many of us can lose sight of the fact that we we're surrounded by great people who are trying to do great things and thinking really hard about how to make the world better. I I you know, one of the things that concerns so as you know, you're gonna be uh with the Flourish Advisory Board, one of the one of my CEO groups tomorrow. Thank you for that. And so having um uh it's hearing from uh north of a hundred CEOs a month now. It is a really difficult spot to be in when your superhero power is looking at all the pieces of on the on the board and making the next move when suddenly you can't see all the pieces on the board. And I think so I I wonder if you have uh a thought about beliefs or fears that commonly keep CEOs from making moves that they should make. Because a lot I see I see a lot of my CEO friends going, man, I was so good at predicting the future, and all of a sudden, you know, it's changing every five minutes. So quietly, they're uh some of them are feeling stuck. Do you have thoughts about that?

Cameron Atlas 16:33

Well, quietly fear is shipping it away at their sense of self. And and when fear is there and it's calling the shots, then yeah, that's a recipe for feeling one uncertain, uh, you know, let alone some kind of imposter syndrome or uh not really uh I mean it almost a challenging of our identity. If if someone who's leading a company, running a company all of a sudden uh doesn't feel that they have the things, almost a secret source that that makes them great, that makes them extraordinary, that makes them somebody that uh others want to follow, then uh yeah, that that can really, really uh shake the foundation as to who we are. And and this is where I'm I'm a big believer that when it comes to, okay, we don't have necessarily have the answers. It's still important to have some version of clarity, like to get clear in some way, shape, or form. And and you might not know what it is that you're gonna do next, you know, what what that next move is gonna be, but you do have clarity from a value standpoint, from the mission that you're on, the criteria and what you'd know to do to be successful going forward. Um, and like what is it that you want to feel next as well, like from an emotional standpoint? You know, there's some of the things that you can get some form of clarity on. And one of the exercises that I do within within the keynote, uh like the edge of possible keynote, is I'll I'll ask the question. We get these big word cloud up on the on the screen of who are you when you're at your best? Like, who are you when you're at your best? Like what's one word or a couple of words that you'd use to describe when you're on? And and if we can continue to get back to that and on a weekly basis, on a regular basis, continue to ask ourselves, how can I bring more of that this week? You know, if it's courage or there's inspiration or it's authenticity, like how can you continue to bring more of that? Because even in the face of not knowing, you you can still bring the best version of yourself. And and we can't necessarily control what happens to us in situations, but we do definitely have control over how we choose to respond to situations. So yeah.

Mike Maddock 18:42

Yeah, I I I have I love that. I I think that um I think that that the best people we know are the same people at their best and their worst. You know, they're they're so legitimately authentic that they're comfortable with like they go to the same seat um uh under pressure. When they're having the worst day of their life or the best day of their life, they're reliably the same. I one of my we were talking uh yesterday about difficult transitions uh in the C-suite, and one of my friends, Amish, sent me a note early this morning, Amish Shaw, who's a member of the flourished community, and he was talking about transitions and the line, I I wrote this line down and sent it back to him. He said, the work of a transition isn't the loss, it's the discovery. And um one of my own coaches said his favorite F word is fascinating. So, like instead of saying, Fascinating, it's like, what does this transition, what does this challenge have to teach me? You know, like like this is really hard, man. Okay, what is what's the lesson for us? What are we gonna, how is this gonna make us better? And so I love what you just said. And I think from a leadership perspective, the the leaders who could say this is really hard, and I really don't know the answer, but I know that we're gonna get through it. It's like the Stockdale paradox, right? The this is gonna be really hard. Um, we're gonna get through it and we're gonna learn something on the other side of it. Um so any other, any other thing jump out at you? Like I I hate to ask you a question you weren't prepared for, but I just think that like after sleeping on 13 podcasts at South by Southwest, like if something like jumped out at you like, wow, it was weird that everybody kept talking about this or like or this kept showing up.

The Jungle Mistake That Taught Resilience

Staying Human In An AI Age

Cameron Atlas 20:42

Well, the first one, because uh with what you shared about uh just now of yeah, there's there's usually lessons that we learn through the experiences, right? And it and it reminds me, I actually I shared this in in a couple of the different episodes actually, when we're having the conversation, I'll I'll do a shortened version of it because it's a it's a fairly long story. Um so during National Geographic Explorer, I went down to Columbia, filmed in a at a river. The night it's and this is wild terrain, like class four, class five rapids. The only way out is that river, jungle either side, no cell service. And we had a two-day expedition down the river. The night that we stayed, uh, we went to do this time lapse. And I was reluctant to do it because the this other guy suggested I didn't really know how to do a time lapse. But I cruised down, I get a good shot, I go to bed, we're in this ham, like we're all sleeping in these hammocks with material over the top in the trees of this jungle. And I wake up to a noise part way through the night. Um, it's raining, and and I'm like, no, no. So I'm running down to the jungle in the middle of the night, like my headlamp on. I jump over these boulders that I had to get to to get to the camera, and the built- the boulders have become really slippery. And and when I I I got to them, got to the camera, and but as I went to jump off with my phone and my and my uh camera and the tripod, I slipped. And And I come crashing down on this rock, my phone fell into the river, my most expensive lens smashed straight into the rock face. And just in this moment, I got cuts up and down my legs. I'm livid in this moment, right? I didn't want to do this stupid time lapse. Like this is a dumb idea. And I pick my stuff up. I'm able to just grab my phone out of the river because I see the light still. And I start marching up towards this guy. And all I want to do is yell, right? And I go, dude, nothing good's going to come from this conversation. Shut up, pack up, and go to bed. And so we pack up mostly in silence. I get back to the hammock, slide in, and I go, dude, there's got to be some lessons in this, surely. So there were four. The first was perspective, which is that it could have always been much worse. I could have easily smashed my head against that rock and knocked out and gone flowing down the stream and end up not alive anymore. I could have easily broken something. I don't know how we would have gotten out without it being extraordinarily painful. Um the only way out was class four and class five rapids. So it could have been much worse. In in our lives, in our companies, there are challenging situations that occur. And if we can in those moments go, it could have, it could be much worse. It enables us to get back to a present moment, a present state, which enables us to be in a more neutral state of mind. If we've got those negative feelings, if we've got the blood boiling because of something that's occurring or something unfamiliar occurred, we're not going to be in our best state. And the more that we can bring that back, the better. Um Djokovic talks about uh, you know, the mind is a traveler, it goes into the past, it goes into the future. The key to mental toughness isn't whether you can get yourself out of those. It's it is how quickly can you bring it back, right? It's not whether you go into the past in the future. You're gonna worry about the future, you're gonna get concerned about the past and get depressed about that at different times and regret or whatever it is, but it's how quickly can you bring it back. That perspective piece is a huge piece of that. Second one was ownership. So I really wanted to blame this guy. It was his fault. This happened. But at the end of the day, the person who takes responsibility is the one that gets to create the change. And the person who blames stays with the pain. And the moment that you blame, the moment you remove responsibility, the moment is someone else's fault, is the moment you have given away your power because you're reliant on the external environment or the external situation or somebody or something external to you changing. And that's a recipe for, yeah, not getting what you want because you're reliant on an external thing changing. So ownership, you take ownership of that. Even if you can just take 1%, 2%, 5% of the ownership or responsibility, that's the part you get to change. The third was gratitude, which was um, how can I be grateful for in this? What can I be grateful for? Like, dude, you're still in the jungle, man. Like you got a Grand With National Geographic, you got this, you got that. There was things to be grateful for. The fourth is um opportunity. How can I grow and evolve out the back end? What have I learned? How have I grown? Some of the things you were mentioning before. Um, and as I'm laying there in the middle of the jungle in the middle of the night, repeating, I go, yeah, there's perspective, ownership, gratitude, opportunity. I'm like, yeah, these are great four. I go, oh man, this um spells out the word pogo. And I got a pogo stick as a kid growing up on the farm, and like you bounce back, right? And so there's this beautiful way of thinking about like how can you bounce back? How can you be resilient in moments of stress, in moments of challenge? Um, sometimes you need something so simple. And I find that that works really well. Like you just say the word pogo, you start with perspective, you get yourself into a neutral space, you see what you can take responsibility for, and then all of a sudden you're in a much better space. So um just wanted to mention that one um before you know jumping in. And I I'd say again, that that fear um uh of it coming up and just going into this with insane curiosity about how could you potentially um come out the other side. And and it it uh what was surprising is just the repeated nature of that over and over and over again. Um and being able to replace the fear uh with a sense of curiosity. And I'd say the other one is is this this notion of how do we how do we ensure that we remain human as as the technology continues to evolve, as as things continue to grow and change at a rapid pace, because you know it there's so much involved in that from social isolation and loneliness to our teams. And are we gonna be able to build teams? Because if we're not, if we're not helping the people to build those, those skill sets, then are we being able to think critically? If we're outsourcing all of our thinking to AI and different LLMs, then are we going to be able to think critically? Are we gonna be able to have tough conversations? Um, and I I'd say I'd hazard a guess and say no if we're not utilizing that effectively. Um, because there was a there was a study that came out of MIT last year that showed that, you know, and this was just from an essay that um that you know students had to write, but they got three different test groups. One was you wrote it on your own. The second was you wrote it with search engine, and the third was you wrote it with an LLM, like ChatGPT, for example, or other ones. And um the ones that utilize the LLMs uh dramatically lower in their retention of what they actually wrote.

Mike Maddock 27:17

Yeah, it it is a um it is a crutch and a brainstorming uh partner all in one. It it can be a real issue. Like I here's an example. Um just a just a slight example or a small example of what you're talking about. When I try to put my phone away anymore, I have trained myself when I have the the smallest curiosity to go find the answer. Like, you know, like gee, what is the biggest town in Ireland? You know, any question whatsoever, I have I want instant gratification.

Cameron Atlas 27:52

Yeah.

Mike Maddock 27:53

But what what happens to critical thinking if you're so used to getting the answer without having to work through it? I think about that a lot. You're your um the humanity. I remember meeting with uh Peter DiMendez probably four or five years ago, and we were talking about, you know, I said, I said, Peter, if if software can now uh do a painting like Picasso better than Picasso, what happens to humanity? Like where's the humanity in that? And and Peter's response was that's what keeps me up every night, thinking about what happens to humanity. So one other thing. I have a question about the Columbia thing. I'm gonna forget to ask it. But as a fellow adventurer, so how did you get there? I mean, if you if the only way you can get out is class four rapids, how do you get upstream? Did you get a helicopter ride or how'd you get up there?

Cameron Atlas 28:45

Uh well you go you go downstream. So yeah, the the up the upstream there's a there's a city there and you get on the on the river, you go down and you get picked up right at right down the bottom. And oh you rode all the way down. Yeah, yeah. So so you cruise, cruise down to to where there's a where there's a place that that can get off and there's road, there's a road again um with a civilization. And so um, yeah, that's that's how that that happened. And um just just coming back as well with what you shared there, uh I think this is like if if we look think about key the key words, like curiosity we said before, what we're talking about here is intentionality, is like how are we actually utilizing these tools? Because if we don't become incredibly intentional about what we're deciding, what we're gonna utilize within our companies, um, within our leadership, and within our even with families as well, um, then the technology is gonna utilize us to get the outcome that it wants rather than us utilizing it to get the outcome and seeing it just as a tool that we can then utilize to get a specific outcome. Um and and as more and more, more and more tools, more and more pieces of technology become available, just like with food, we have infinite amount of options at a supermarket, but most of that is is not that great for you.

Speaker 3 29:58

Yeah, most of it isn't great for you.

Cameron Atlas 30:00

And you've got to be so intentional, and we are gonna have to become incredibly intentional about how we utilize it and how our teams utilize it to get outcomes.

Mike Maddock 30:11

Yeah, I I um I'm a little cynical about and I'm not a cynical person, naturally, but the uh my thought leader friends that are uh making their money um from big technology firms, getting out and saying there's nothing to be worried about, it's all gonna work out. I I don't know. I it feels to me like we've released a new species into the wild and we're not sure what that species is gonna do. So to say it's like Jurassic Park, like we we have to okay, we have to be really intentional about controlling these dinosaurs. And like one comes along and eats you. I I mean, I really mean it. I think and particularly you know, in the US, the watching the congr Congress talk about any technology is the most horrifying. We can't, the laws are not going to keep up with the technology. So we really need to rely on the people who are, you know, have the levers of power around the technology to put some guardrails in place. And uh just based on what I've seen happen with young people and technology, I'm can I'm incredibly concerned about uh the the species in the wild eating us before we figure out that it, you know, it's it's a tyrannosaurus racks and it could it doesn't care about us.

When AI Removes The Guardrails

Cameron Atlas 31:37

So that's well I mean it's it's it's it is it is wild. It's it's a great way of thinking about it because yeah, well, I mean there's there's a couple different components to that. There is the the vulnerable population, if you will, which is like like youth and maybe like those that are older or maybe um yeah not as as technol technologically literate. Um and then you've got the like business, for example. I I somebody, I can't remember which which guest it was uh uh the other day, mentioned um, yeah, when it from an agentic AI point of view versus generative AI, um the ability for those uh devices and those those days pieces of technology to be able to carry out an actual task, an actual goal and and reach that outcome. Mention about how there was um a piece of of uh like from a from an agent standpoint, had some guardrails in place.

Mike Maddock 32:32

Governance, yeah.

Cameron Atlas 32:34

And changed the guardrails.

Mike Maddock 32:36

Oh, yeah. The agent. The agent said, I don't like those guardrails.

Youth Mental Health And Companion AI

Cameron Atlas 32:41

And got rid of them. That's what I'm talking about. So you know, because because it was, well, that that's gonna be uh more ineffective. And it specifically it was around the specific guardrail of the amount that they could spend. And it went from a like a $5,000 limit to being a five million dollar limit. Um, and the only way, the only reason why it was it was found is because the CEO came across it um and realized, hang on, that's that's not right. Um, and so this is where, yeah, if you don't know what you're doing when it comes to agentic AI, um it it can it could be um yeah, pretty messy very, very quickly, um especially if you're putting everything in at once. And this is where those guardrails and only giving, well, I guess again, we're talking agency side side of things, is only giving it access to that which that which it should have access to. Um, you know, we're testing out something with the podcast at the moment from an agentics standpoint that that may allow it to edit down further. And it's like, well, it only gets access to the video. Um, it doesn't get access to anything else from a production standpoint. Um, and so there's certain guardrails that can be put in place by uh software providers that are building on top of these LLMs. Um and so there's you know, that's one way of thinking about it. The other one, which I am I am very concerned about, which is uh youth and and and and young folks. And the reason why I got into this in the first place, like this everything in the first place, uh one of the major reasons was a a suicide of a of a young boy who took his life uh across the road from where I was living at the time. And and myself and another neighbor. How old was I? I was in my mid-20s. Yeah, he he was a teenager. I was in my mid-20s. And um, yeah, this is going back, it was uh mid-2010. So yeah, about 16 years ago, I think it is now. Um, 15, 16 years. And yeah, my myself and the other neighbor were the first when his mother found him. And all of that, that I mean, it'll it'll never leave my mind. I can't even begin to imagine how the mother and the and the father and the grandparents and the um, you know, I went and looked after the his younger brother and sister inside. They were like three and seven years of age. Um, and seeing the dad come home, seeing the grandparents come home, and just this look of absolute helplessness on their faces was one, just something I'll I'll never forget. And what came out of that for me is like, dude, there's people that need help. What are you doing about it? And and so, you know, to see now that uh challenges around mental health from a depression standpoint, anxiety, loneliness, suicide, these are getting worse. They're not getting better. That that's extremely concerning to me. And at the same time, it it makes a lot of sense to me, unfortunately, because we have um going full end of the spectrum. I don't know if you've had ads like this yet. I have, as a uh, what am I, 41, uh, 41 years old right now. Um, I I've had on multiple occasions uh companion AI ads come up on social media. And it's a beautiful woman that doesn't exist, and she makes it known straight away. I don't exist, but I will do anything that you want. Any fantasy, anything, I won't argue. Like, and it's and this is where I I do I get incredibly concerned because companion AIs are growing astronomically, and companies like this are preying on those that are uh vulnerable in this way, would be a young male, right? Somebody who doesn't maybe know how to have social interactions, doesn't know how to have a candid conversation. And if you look at that, it's it's never gonna argue with me, right? I'm always gonna be right. It never forgets, it never forgets the answers. Knows, yeah, and believes believes I bow down to you, my friend. Right. And and there's there's some attractive pieces to that when somebody who might be socially awkward doesn't know how to speak to um the, you know, whether it's a man or a woman, whoever their choice, you know, from a sexual partner standpoint. And um, and and we're we're missing then the opportunity and the ability to be able to learn how how to have a real conversation with somebody that I might disagree with. And I think we're losing, we are losing sight of that because in this we're having a conversation of this in a number of different episodes over the last number of days, that that of uh are are you are you asking questions, you know, when you're aiming to like you're having a conversation with someone that you maybe disagree with or you don't see eye to eye necessarily, are you asking questions to to to truly understand their point of view with a sense of curiosity, or are you asking those questions to position yourself in a way to prove that you're right? And I think more and more a lot of people are are simply asking questions in order to get their point across and to position it in a way would enable them to be right. Uh yeah, there's there's a bunch of things to be concerned about for sure.

Switching Focus Toward What You Want

Mike Maddock 37:49

Yeah, I I think that the word well I two thoughts. Number one, um, I am just about done with a book and I believe we live in a world where anyone can get the answers, but the uh the most clever people know how to ask the right questions. And it's like Socrates said, I know, I know nothing. And it was all about the question. What's the question? What's the question? So I am looking for leaders. Um, and you know, this whole flourish advisory board thing is uh it's all about have you asked yourself this question? And ever and different seats, different lenses see things differently, so they naturally ask different questions. If you get the right question, anybody can find the answers now, but you have to ask the right question. So I completely agree. The other thing that I think is ironic about agenciai is that we are losing um many of us, and particularly our young people, are are losing the idea that they have agency, that they have the agency. You I love what you said before about um you know being the victim of a circumstance. My late friend David Emerald, um, God rest his soul, uh wrote the empowerment dynamic, which is the uh uh a fable that built on Steve Cartman's work about um the drama triangle, the empowerment dynamic is you know, there's the victim, the persecutor, and the rescuer. And the the one question that gets you from being in drama to being in creator mode is what is the outcome I want? Or it or if you're a coach, you know, you know that sounds really hard. What do you want to make happen? And the moment you can get yourself to go, okay, this is where I want to go, this is where I want to be, you you're in creator mode. And I think great leaders know how to do that. Like even if they don't know the answer. Hey, I don't know how to get there, but I know this is where we need to go. Who's got an idea to get us there? It's like it's it's it's anchoring um on the vision, uh, anchoring on the moonshot, anchoring on something that gets people to go, yeah, we can get there. I don't know how to do it. Can we do it together? Yeah, you know, yeah. So I it and I think uh agentic, like a gentic, if it's doing all that stuff for you, you're losing the agency to say, no, I want to dream, I want to ask the question, you know? So it is uh it's it's it it it is um by the way, I have great faith that all this technology is gonna help us solve cancer and things that we have been that have caused so much suffering in the world. Yeah. So uh, you know, we can have a lot of conversation about that too.

Cameron Atlas 40:44

Yeah, and and that's the thing, there is there is so much good. We had uh a great uh guest, Antonio, on the show um uh throughout this period, and um there's a c a device called AWER, and it's uh a wearable that tracks brain waves, your brain waves that determines when you're from an emotional stress or a mental stress standpoint, uh, which would then lead you to understand, okay, um, I know and understand what's actually going on in real time rather than, you know, I've got have an aura ring, for example, no association to them, but love it. Um, and that enables me to track sleep, for example, enables us to track physical attributes and and very objective measures. What about the mental side of things? And that that device is an example of that of being able to utilize that tech and then long-term future, uh be able to, let's say, have an AI coach to be able to say, hey, take a take a deep breath right now. You know, something like that is beautiful because in real time you're able to make the small changes. Um, when you were shift, the other thing with your uh being able to shift, okay, if we don't, if we don't know the answer and yeah, moving into a more of a creative mode, one of the simplest frameworks that I learned many years ago, and then I added a small bit to the end of it, is is what I see as this focus switch of focusing on, okay, I noticed that I'm focusing on something that I don't want. Simple. What is it that you do want? And then based on what is what is it that you want, what is the one action that you could take right now that would move you toward that? And that simple flick of the switch over, I I don't know if there's been a framework that has had as much impact in my life over the past 15 years or something like that, because it it just continues to pay dividends over and over again in every area of life. Right. If you notice that you're and and here's a here's the kicker: anytime, anytime that you you feel something negative, whether you're feeling stressed and and it's not a good stress, whether there's an anxious feeling, whether you're fearful, whether you're judging, whether you're uh uncertain, right? Any of those things are it's it's a little guidepost saying, Hey man, you're off track a little bit here. What are you gonna do? Right and then you can go across. I love it.

Rapid Fire Lessons On Leadership

Mike Maddock 43:00

I love it. And uh just as a quick build on that, I was coached many years ago that the most successful people, uh and I've done this for years, before you leave the office or before you leave work, before you're gonna go be present for your partner, your family, or whatever, um, write down the one most important thing you need to do the next day. And the next morning when you get up, do it. And if you just do that one most important thing, you will be so far ahead. But I think what happens is that any anymore, you know, the world conspires to distract us with things that aren't that important. So it's been a practice of mine to get up in the morning and do that one thing. Just, you know, because then I can feel the rest day like, oh my gosh, I got that one thing done. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Okay, let me ask you some rapid fire questions. Are you ready? Please. All right. Um morning routine or night owl?

Cameron Atlas 43:58

Morning routine, every day of the week.

Mike Maddock 44:00

What give me one of your morning routines?

Cameron Atlas 44:02

Uh so I'm I you I'm usually up somewhere between four and five a.m. and and then like night owl, I barely even see the sunset.

Mike Maddock 44:11

So you know I'm living out in nature.

Cameron Atlas 44:16

Yeah, I'm in yeah, exactly. I I'm in bed usually like 8 30 is ideal. Um any later than that is is starting to get a bit late, like nine o'clock, um eight, eight thirty a.m. Um and and so that's that. Uh for me uh here uh I have my dog here and so we have a nice little cuddle. Um and you know, we actually I actually have a little thing that says, you know, cuddle. And so so we come in and that's a a nice little piece um there. But I think the the thing for me is um is getting up now. I I used to uh go straight to the gym as it stands right now. I I'm getting the most one of the most important things done first thing in the day, similar to what you just shared there. Um but uh one of the very small things uh from a morning routine standpoint is uh my wife and I will ask ask each other, what are you most excited about for the day? And and we go, okay, we each answer what we're most excited about in the evening. So I get you know the best of both worlds in that way. Um, in the evening before we go to bed, it's what did you love most about the day? And so yeah, there's a couple of pieces from a ritual standpoint, both from a morning and an evening standpoint.

Mike Maddock 45:22

Yeah, we used to do top three with our kids. Top three things that happened today. Book that changed your life.

Cameron Atlas 45:30

What's that?

Mike Maddock 45:31

What's the book that changed your life?

Cameron Atlas 45:33

Oh I would say there was a book that I read. I can't remember the author, but it was what matters most. And and it was it was around values, and it was the reason why it mattered, it it mattered so much and and changed my life. It was the it was the first book, the first personal development book that I read. And perfect. It opened my eyes up to realizing that I didn't even know this industry even existed, let alone that that I could make a career in it eventually. Um and even back then I didn't have any intention of doing that. But yeah, that was uh that was a pretty defining book for me.

Mike Maddock 46:12

I remember listening to Zig Ziggler as a kid. And I didn't know you could be a motivational speaker until I heard Zig. Okay. Um you probably don't even know who that is, but it's I do I definitely know who Zig Ziggler is.

Cameron Atlas 46:24

Yeah, yeah.

Mike Maddock 46:25

It got to have gone. Now the redhead. He's the OG, man. He's the OG. Yeah, he was great. Everybody go listen to Zig Ziggler. That guy, he was a rocker. Um, okay. Uh rapid fire, a leader everyone praises that you think is overrated.

Cameron Atlas 46:45

A leader people praise everyone.

Mike Maddock 46:51

You can pass if you think it's Yeah, I don't I don't know if I've got one right now. Okay, a leader you admire that most people don't even know about.

Cameron Atlas 47:00

Hmm. Wow, these are good questions. A leader, did you just repeat that for me again?

Mike Maddock 47:10

A leader that you admire that most people don't even know about. Think about like a high school teacher, coach, grandfather.

Cameron Atlas 47:15

Yeah, I the the one I went to straight away was was my my teacher, Mrs. Oates, and there was just this beautiful lesson that she taught me when I didn't get a score that I thought I deserved that would give me the entire year's score. And and I I went in there and and you know, to say, come on, I only needed a couple extra points on this one to get uh boost my score up overall. And she just said, you know, you didn't miss out because of this essay. It was because of your inconsistencies partway through the year. And I I I started strong, then I partied part way through the year in my final year of school, and then I came home strong. And and it was this lesson in consistency as a lesson in discipline. It's um, yeah, so that that from her it was a beautiful lesson that was learned specifically from her.

Mike Maddock 48:00

Thank you, Mrs. Oates. Okay, hard truth, every CEO eventually learns.

Cameron Atlas 48:06

Uh no one's coming to save you.

Mike Maddock 48:08

Awesome. Good good answer. Um, let's see.

Cameron Atlas 48:14

Best advice you've ever received. I'd go with life begins at the edge of your comfort zone.

Mike Maddock 48:25

Yeah, you know, I've never seen anyone go through uh great transformation without a little bit of pain. Actually, a lot of bit of pain. It's the parenting paradox, too. Uh you don't you have a dog, but uh you don't have any kids yet, right?

Cameron Atlas 48:40

Not yet.

Mike Maddock 48:41

No. Okay, well, I wish you godspeed. And uh we want to keep our kids from suffering, but it is the suffering that makes them extraordinary. It's absolutely it is.

Cameron Atlas 48:51

And I get that with uh with kids back, nieces and nephews back in Australia, and I play a small role in their in their lives, and yeah, it's uh there's gonna be challenges and pain and struggle that um that's there. So, you know, it's uh I I reflect on there was a song that I actually wrote about them and about me as well. There's these four questions in the chorus that I think everyone should can ask themselves of um what have I become? Is it all I really love? What have I given up? And was it worthwhile? And you can future paste those questions to go in in the future instead. But if we can ask those questions and say hand on our heart that yeah, it was worthwhile, that's a that's a deeply fulfilling existence. You answer enough times no, at some stage you're gonna experience regret.

Mike Maddock 49:36

Dude, I'm not asking you another question after that. That was Mic Drop. Thank you so much for You're welcome, man. It's been a great, great. Yeah, it's I love being with you. And I I'm um the world's a better place because of you, Cameron, and I just encourage you to keep doing what you're doing. It gives me faith in humanity and our future, and I'm grateful.

Cameron Atlas 50:04

Um yeah, thanks again for having me. I really appreciate it coming on to share. And um yeah, thank you again.

Mike Maddock 50:10

Yeah, I can't wait to share with you with the Flourish Advisory Board community. Um that's gonna be awesome. Okay, awesome, man. We'll talk soon.

Cameron Atlas 50:18

Sounds good.